Vz Holding Aktie

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the VZ Holding Analyst Conference Call on the 2025 Half Year Results. I am Sandra, the Chorus Call operator. [Operator Instructions] The conference is being recorded. [Operator Instructions]

At this time, it's my pleasure to hand over to Mr. Giulio Vitarelli, CEO of VZ Holding. Please go ahead, sir.

Thank you, Sandra. Good morning, and welcome to the presentation of our 2025 half year results. Our presentation is ready for download on our website or via link you'll find in the invitation for this call. I will guide you through the presentation as usually, together with our Chief Financial Officer, Rafael Pfaffen. Rafael will take over agenda item 2, and I will take you through agenda items 1 and 3. For your questions, we will attend them at the end of our presentation.

Let's start with the summary of the first half year 2025 on Page 3 on the left side of this page. The last 6 months have been marked by profound geopolitical changes and sharp price fluctuations in financial markets. And at the same time, the Swiss National Bank continued to lower interest rates to 0%. So Switzerland is once again on the brink of negative interest rates. Despite this market environment, we were able to further expand our business. The demand for our consulting expertise is still growing, and we are able to further increase our consulting capacity to an expected average of 259 FTEs for the year 2025. That would reflect a growth of 9.3%.

Our academy is still well staffed with young talent. So we will be able to expand the consulting capacity in future years as well. For the year 2026, we plan to expand the capacity to 281 FTEs. The high number of consulting projects also brings us an increase in new platform clients. After a consultancy project, many clients opt for one or more of our platform services. And as a result, we gained 5,000 new households using our platform services.

The net new money per consulting FTE came in with a strong CHF 23.2 million. This figure is above the 5-year average and mainly due to the strong inflow of new clients, but also the result of unchanged top-performing peer mandates and high existing client satisfaction. A few words to our business abroad. In Germany, we are growing according to plan in step with Switzerland, and we saw an improved marketing response. Also, our new branch office in Berlin, which was opened last year is performing well. In the U.K., we can conclude that the assumptions regarding market potential have been confirmed and that our approach of combining organic growth with the integration of smaller IFAs is working. We are, therefore, satisfied with the path we have chosen and will continue to pursue it consistently.

Last but not least, as a result of the continuous development of our digital customer interface, the VZ financial portal, the research institute, Trenda and e.foresight ranked us first in their mobile and e-banking rankings. This is confirmation that we are setting the right priorities in development of our customer interface.

Let's take a look now to the most important key financial figures that are summarized on the right-hand side of this page. Our top line growth came in at 9.9% year-over-year. So we are at CHF 277.9 million compared to CHF 252.9 million in the first half year 2024. As total expenses grew by 10.5%, we were able to increase our bottom line by 9% year-over-year to CHF 112 million. These figures lead to an EBIT margin of 46.8% and a net profit margin of 40.3%.

Our balance sheet shows still solid ratios, and these ratios are well above the industry average, and we are determined to keep it that way also in the future. More details on this topic will follow later from Rafael. Looking at the AUM side, we were able to generate CHF 3 billion of net new money. So AUM stood at CHF 56.5 billion by the end of June 2025 compared to CHF 53.1 billion by the end of 2024.

Now we will go into some details on the following pages. On Page 4, we see the different components of our revenue stream. 4 out of 5 components came in higher than in the previous year. The largest component the management fees on AUM came in with a strong growth of 15%, driven by net new money. Of the other components, I would like to emphasize the growth in consulting fees income. The plus 15% reflects the strong demand for our consulting expertise. And as you know, that is the key also for our future growth. As expected, banking income decreased by 9.3% in the first half year.

And as we can see on next Page 5, the decline is solely attributable to the net interest business, which declined by 28. 8% year-over-year. This is now the result of the interest rate policy of the Swiss National Bank. However, interest business accounts for only 8.4% of total revenues in this first half year. So comparable to other financial institutions, it's a low rate for this income stream. Trading result in contrast increased by 33.7%, thanks to the development of financial markets, which led to higher customer activity and the downward trend in transaction fees that we have faced in earlier years. This downward trend that is due to the strong demand for all-in fee models was partially compensated in the first half year 2025 by transaction fees of self-directed clients. As we expect the stronger demand for all-in fee models styles to -- or models to continue, for the moment, we would be satisfied to maintain these figures at this level.

Turning to Page 6, we see the evolution of interest margin. The interest margin peaked in 2023 and then declined steadily to 0.6% in this first half year 2025 as expected. For the full financial year 2025, as we mentioned earlier this year, we still expect the interest margin between 15 and 60 basis points, assuming no further rate cuts by the Swiss National Bank and the balance sheet growth at the average of the last years.

On Page 7, we can see the bottom line development, which, as already mentioned, came in 9% higher than in the first half year 2024 at CHF 112 million. The net profit margin stands at 40.3% and came down from the peaks of the last 2 years, where we had tailwind of interest business. With the interest business further declining, we will keep the long-term target at 38%, always meant as a minimum target.

Let's turn to Page 8 now, where on the left side, you can see the development of our financial consulting capacity. As mentioned before, the development of the capacities is going as planned. In 2025, we have an average of 259 FTEs working as consultants for new consulting clients. And we expect to increase this number by a further 8% to an average of 281 in 2026. And we plan to increase this number at the same pace in the future, which will enable us to meet the strong demand for our consulting services.

As you can see in the middle of the page, the strong demand for consulting services has been reflected in strong consulting revenues. This is the ultimate signal, which shows the strong demand for our offerings, and that is the key for our future growth. As a result of the strong client demand, the net new money number came in at CHF 3 billion, which means a new high. These figures translate to an average of CHF 23.2 million net new money per consulting FTEs. And this figure is slightly above the 5-year average, but lower than in 2021. We are calculating the 5-year average and refraining from specifying a target corridor for the net new money figure per consultant. As we operate and maintain a sustainable and steady business model, this will provide a realistic long-term benchmark for us.

On the next Page 9, we will discuss the Wealth Management numbers. As mentioned before, AUM increased by 14.1% year-over-year to CHF 56.5 billion, driven by both lines, the PM mandates and the others. The rise of 14.1% is the result of strong net new money and top-performing PM mandates. Equally important is the number of platform clients. This number increased by 13.4% compared with the first half year of 2024 to roughly 88,000 households. This means a strong increase of 5,000 new wealth management clients in 2025. And we expect this figure to continue to increase at the same rate as the client demand on the consulting side.

Moving to Page 10. We can see the results of our work on the platform clients. In the middle of the page, we have the share of our clients using only 1 platform. And on the right side, we see the share of clients using 3+ platforms. The share of clients using 3+ platforms increased to 27.2%. And as you know, our long-term target is a share of 33% of clients using 3-plus platforms, continuing to add more than 9,000 new clients a year, which usually start with using platform. This target can be considered or this result can be considered as a strong performance.

A very important measurement for us is the client satisfaction reported on Page 11. We measure the satisfaction with the NPS, the Net Promoter Score, methodology. And the evaluation continues to show a very high level of satisfaction for both client segments, consulting and wealth management clients. A score above 20 is considered as very good. We are above 70 or above 80 and above 50 is considered in the NPS methodology as world-class. It's important for us that even with a fast-growing client base, we continue to maintain this extremely high level of service quality.

Looking to Page 12, you can see our branch office network over the 3 countries. Our plan is to further increase the number of branch offices over the next years. In Switzerland, we are working on opening 3 to 5 new offices over the next 18 months. The next ones will be opened in Reinach near Basel in Zofingen and in Iberdor in the French part of Switzerland. In the U.K. we will be able to expand our presence around London, but this path is mainly driven by the acquisition and integration of smaller IFA in the future. What you can't see on this chart is the expansion of existing branches. We expand the areas of 2 to 3 Swiss branches every year because we are experiencing more client demand also in the areas where we have branches or we have been since a long time.

Now for the next agenda item, I have the pleasure to pass you over to Rafael Pfaffen, our Chief Financial Officer, who will go through the details of our financials. Rafael?

Good morning also from my side. I start the presentation on Page 14. Here, you can see the development of our revenues and expenses over the last 2.5 years. And this gives you an idea how our business is growing. As Giulio has already explained the most important effects on the total revenues or on the revenue lines. I start with the total revenues. As already mentioned, they increased from CHF 225.9 million (sic) [ CHF 252.9 million ] to CHF 277.9 million, which is an increase of 9.9%. The personnel expenses grew in line with the top line. They increased by 10% and the other operating expenses increased by 15.6%. I will elaborate a little bit further on those 2 developments on the next slides.

The depreciation and amortization increased by only 3.8%. For this year, the growth is a little bit slower on this line item than in the past. We have certain small one-off effects in 2024 and also 2025, but they are not really relevant. So I will not go into the details here. Looking into 2026, we believe that this line will grow again in the -- with the growth rate that we have seen in the last 5 years. Then as a consequence, the total expenses grew by 10.5% to CHF 47.9 million. As the expenses grew a little bit faster than the revenues, the EBIT grew by 9.2% to CHF 130 million. And the net profit grew by 9% to CHF 112 million.

Then on Page 15, you see the personnel expenses over the last 3.5 years. They grew by 10% to CHF 104.3 million, and the personnel expense ratio was at 37.5%. As already mentioned, we had a little bit headwind from the interest business this half year and also in the future. And therefore, the personnel expense line -- or personnel expense ratio went a little bit up. However, we expect that this figure remain below the 39% that we have set as a maximum threshold for ourselves. Then at the end of June 2025, we had roughly 1,622 full-time equivalents employed within VZ Group. This is -- corresponds more or less to 1,850 people that we have in our group. And in the first half year, we were able to increase the FTEs by 54 FTEs, and we think that in the second half year 2025, we will be able to increase our staff on a similar level as in the first half year.

Then I move on to the other operating expenses. They increased by 15.6% due to the attractive market potential in Germany, Switzerland and U.K. We increased the marketing expenses by 14.7% and the general and administrative expenses grew by 18.6%. This figure is mainly driven by IT costs. And then there are quite a few reasons why this cost increased by 18.6%. First of all, we have a big basis effect as the IT costs in the first half year of 2024 were unusually low. Actually, we had more or less stable IT costs in the time period of -- since the first half year of 2022 until the first half year of 2024. And now IT costs grow again in line with the business.

Then another effect is that we see a certain shift from depreciation to IT expenses. We have less and less physical IT infrastructure that we buy, and therefore, we have less CapEx that we have to depreciate. And as we have more and more services in the cloud, we have more operating expenses. And the third impact is that we had certain IT costs that usually come in, in the second half year. But in 2025, they came in already in the first half year. So there's a third effect why the IT costs are a little bit higher or the growth was higher than usual. If we look at the whole year 2025, then -- or if we look into the second half year of 2025, then we will not have those effects.

We will have no basis effect in the second half year of 2025. And as we already have paid certain IT costs in the first half year, the IT cost in the second half year should not grow significantly. And therefore, overall, in the -- for the whole year 2025, we expect that other operating expenses will grow more or less in line with the figures we have seen in the last 5 years. The long-term operating expenses should be between 11% and 13%. At the moment, they are at 11.2%. So we believe that we will be in this corridor also in the next years.

And the EBIT on Page 17 increased by 9.2% to CHF 130 million. The EBIT margin was at 46.8%. Because of the headwind from the net interest income, we expect that this figure will decrease. But again, it should be above our minimum target of 44%.

And then I move on to the balance sheet on Page 18. On a year-to-date basis, the AUM -- the balance sheet increased by 7.5% to CHF 8 billion. On the asset side, the biggest increase was on the cash and cash equivalents, which increased by CHF 225 million to CHF 1.9 billion. And the Swiss prime residential mortgages grew by 210% to roughly CHF 4.5 billion. On the liability side, the biggest contributor were the client customer deposits. They increased on a year-to-date basis by CHF 570 million to CHF 6 billion. The total equity remained unchanged at CHF 1.06 billion. The reason for this is that we paid out the dividend in the first half year. Roughly, it was CHF 108 million. And then with the net profit from the first half year and certain other effects, this decrease was compensated. So at the end, the equity was at the same level as at the beginning of the period.

And for the second half year, we expect that the equity will grow again because we said we will not have any dividend payments. So that's a normal effect that the equity normally grows faster or stronger in the second half year than in the first one. Overall, we have a very low risk profile. As mentioned, we have CHF 1.9 billion of cash with the SNB and [ HSB. ] So we are very liquid. The average remaining interest period on our financial investments is roughly 1.6 years. And we have quite low credit risks. We have very high-quality bonds that we buy and our loan-to-value ratio on our mortgages is below 50% in the average.

That we have a very strong balance sheet is also shown on the next page. On the right-hand side, you see the equity ratio. It's -- on weighted equity ratio, it's at 13.2%. And the common capital ratio, the CET1 ratio is at 28.4%. As we have a very safe balance sheet and very low operational risk, the implementation of the Basel III final framework helped us to increase our common capital ratio by roughly 3%. So it increased from 25% to 28.4%, which is well above the market average. The Moody's rating of the VZ Depository Bank is still a Aa3, which corresponds to a AA- rating in the S&P terminology.

On the left-hand side, you see the dividend that was approved by the general assembly in April. We paid out a dividend of CHF 107.6 million, which corresponds to a payout ratio of 50% and a dividend per share of CHF 2.73 per share. Looking forward, we also believe or plan that the payout ratio for the business year 2025 will also be at 50%, and we plan to keep this payout ratio at 50% also in the next years to come. With this information, I hand back to Giulio, who will elaborate a little bit further on the outlook of 2025.

Thank you, Rafael, for your comments. Let's go to the outlook now on Page 21. Basically, we will continue to build up our business by increasing the new client inflow and the consulting capacity. We are working on the client conversion rate of consulting clients into platform clients. And as we mentioned before, the demand for our consulting services is still high, and we assume that it will increase also in the next years due to demographic challenges and growing complexity in the pension system and tax legislation. So as planned, we are working on increasing the consulting capacity by 7% to 9% per year.

With our platform clients, we are working on increasing the platform usage per client. And last but not least, we are increasing or expanding the physical presence with our branch offices. All of this is the basis of our business model and the key for our future growth and results in the unchanged long-term growth story. On the digital side, we will continue developing our financial portal. As next steps, we will extend service functionalities and offer digital assistance. And we are working on implementing conversational banking. What is that? That's a tool that simplifies secure communication and secure document exchange with our clients.

The VZ financial portal is very important for us because it is the digital interface to our clients. And the biggest part of our platform clients uses it. In Germany, we will go on working on marketing our services to increase the new client inflow and increase our consulting capacity. And in the U.K., we are still working on improving the marketing intelligence and broadening the internal trainee program for new advisers, and we are working on 3 to 5 smaller IFA acquisitions per year.

Then we are exploring the possibility of integration of our own portfolio management platform. In the first step, what we are doing now, we are reducing the number of external platforms that are used by our clients from today 17 to about 3. This step started in 2024 and should be completed by mid-2026. Integrating the PM platform could bring an increase of efficiency in managing the client portfolios and increases also our revenues, but without raising the prices for our clients.

Let me also say a few words on the financial outlook on the right-hand side. Due to Swiss National Bank interest rate adjustments, we expect our net interest business to further decrease in the second half year 2025. But all other revenue streams are expected to grow in line with the long-term average of the past. Provided that revenue and profit growth of 2025 will be lower than the long-term average of the past, always assuming that financial markets remain stable.

Once the interest rate shift has been digested, we expect to return to our long-term growth path in the second half year of 2026 and beyond. As Rafael mentioned before, the dividend payout ratio will remain at 50% for 2025 and the years beyond. This means that in the near future, the dividend will grow in line with profits.

Yes. Here, our presentation comes to an end. And now Rafael and I are ready for your questions. For this, I will pass you over to the operator.

[Operator Instructions] Our first question comes from Andreas Venditti from Vontobel.

Maybe if we start with net interest income that you just mentioned, you expect it to decrease further in the second half of the year. If I then look at your guidance for next year, where you say you expect to return to long-term growth potential in the second half, is this guidance also related to a further decrease in the first half of '26 in the net interest income? That's the first question.

Then maybe in terms of the, let's say, less easily forecastable revenue streams in terms of trading and transaction. On the transaction side, you said you would be happy to keep the figure of the first half. Is this referring to the second half or basically going forward also over the next years? And in terms of trading, which was very strong and I guess, generally very strong also in other companies that have reported, does this also have to do with the improved tools that you introduced over the last few years in terms of trading and so on? Or is it mainly a reflection of really very high activity? Yes, I'll leave it here, and I might ask more questions later.

Okay. Maybe for the first question, it's Rafael answering.

Yes. Yes, the margin in the net interest business will keep on decreasing in the second half year of 2025 and also a little bit in the first half year of 2026. This is because we have certain assets or investments that run for a couple of months and react with a certain delay to the interest costs. So yes, that's -- if your question is correct or your -- yes, we will have a little decline also in the first half year of 2026.

Okay. And then I take over your second question. Maybe I start with the question about the trading result. And what we see there is that it's -- generally speaking, it's because of fluctuations in financial markets. So the increase of 33.7% is mainly driven by the fluctuations on financial markets. But what is also reflected is that we have a growing base of platform clients. And of course, with a growing base of platform clients, we should see also an increase in trading result in the future. But it always depends how financial markets develop and in a short-term view, how they develop and how they fluctuate. So it's very difficult to predict how this increase could be in future.

But generally speaking, that should be an increase in this figure. It's different with the transaction fees. There, as you know, we have our old portfolios where we don't charge an all-in fee. We charge the transaction fee separately. And this portfolio will be smaller and smaller over the years. So the transaction fees will decline the transaction fees out of this portfolio because the new clients, they opt for an all-in fee model. So the transaction fees are not reflected here. They are reflected under the AUM fees.

But what we also have is a growing number of clients that are self-directed and trade in a self-directed deposit. And also this number of clients is growing, but it's still a small number. But what we have seen now in the first half year of 2025 that the transaction of these clients compensated the reduction of the existing clients of the portfolio or the transaction out of the portfolio of the existing clients that portfolio that is let's say, dying over the next 15 years. And of course, also our investments in our tools, first in the financial portal. Second, what we launched by January 2025 is our new Internet site, [indiscernible] helps to attract these kind of clients.

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from Daniel Regli from ZKB.

I have 2 questions. One is on capital and one is on kind of the businesses abroad. And first, on the capital, obviously, you're one of the beneficiaries of Basel III final as it seems. Now you're running at 28% or even more CET1 capital. And if I'm correct, typically, the capital ratio rather goes down with H1 as only the full year profits then are capital accretive. So kind of if adjusting for kind of the accrued profits, which are not yet reflected in the CET1 capital, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're even running at a higher capital ratio at the moment than 28%. So any thoughts on the use of this excess capital, which could amount to about CHF 200 million above the 25% CET1 capital target you once said you're running the business at?

And then secondly, can you just elaborate a bit more on the developments in Germany about this increase in consulting capacity and also in the U.K. And can you maybe give us some indication on what the benefits of this both developments could be or you expect?

Yes, of course, we do it the same way. First question for Rafael and second one for me.

Yes, you're right. In the past, the Tier 1 ratio in the second half year came in mostly 1 percentage point higher, 1% higher than the first half year. Now with the Basel III final framework, this effect will not be as big as we can already attribute 70% of the half year profit to the capital. We have then to take out the 50% dividend that we plan to pay out. But this is a change. So the first half year will not be -- or the second half year most likely will not be that much higher than the first half year. But this has, I mean, many -- depends on how the balance sheet develops. But this effect now doesn't exist any longer in this amount as you have -- we have seen in the past.

And the question around excess capital, no, we plan to keep the Tier 1 ratio at the new level because it's just that the Basel III framework has changed, but our risk appetite didn't, and it's still important for our clients that we show very strong Tier 1 ratios. So no, we don't plan to change anything in this respect.

Okay. Thank you, Rafael. And second question was about our business abroad. Yes, as you know, we don't disclose concrete numbers about our business abroad. And in Germany -- let me say a few words to Germany and then to the U.K. In Germany, the German market or the German business grows at the same path as our Swiss business. As the Swiss business accounts for roughly 95% of our total business, you can see that the numbers or the figures are not very high, but the German business is profitable and grows at the same path as the Swiss business. And also in Germany, we are focusing on the same things as we focus in Switzerland. So we focus on marketing our services.

We focus on winning new clients for consultancy projects. We are focused on the conversion of consulting clients into platform clients and then focus on developing the platform clients, but we don't have the same possibilities in Germany to develop the platform clients compared to Switzerland because there are no second and third pillar solutions there that we can offer because the pensions are run by the government.

It's different in the U.K. In the U.K., we want to have both, first, an organic growth; and second, a growth also driven by integration of new smaller IFAs. And what we are doing is we build up our organic growth by focusing on marketing our services and also by training new consultants. But to increase the reach of our messages, it's very important to integrate new IFAs. With the client base of our new IFAs that we are able to integrate, we can increase the reach that we have around London. So we reach more clients. We have more addresses that we can communicate with and working with the new clients gives us the possibility to have or to win also new money out of existing clients. So for us, the strategic approach is organic and acquisition with smaller IFAs, integrating the IFAs and developing the client book of these acquired or integrated IFAs.

We have a follow-up question from Mr. Venditti from Vontobel.

Maybe just a quick one on the new guidance that you gave for the net new money per FTE. The 5-year average, should we see this as a minimum target that you have or just a guidance around which you want to be compared to the former 17% to 20% target range?

Thank you for your question. Yes, the second one. So as you know, our net new money figure is always just a result of our of our consulting projects. And therefore, it can only be influenced indirectly by us. And the old target range of CHF 17 million to CHF 20 million was also based on past averages. What we did now is we only specified the time period for calculating the average and made this time period transparent. And the result is that with this 5 average, we are reflecting the development and allows us and you a true assessment of the result.

And now coming to your question, if we want to see it as a minimum, no, we don't want to see it as a minimum. It helps us to understand how the result is to be interpreted that we reach and helps us to keep this line very near to the average of the 5 years because with every completed year, the average will be adjusted. So we want to be around this 5-year average.

Perfect. Very clear. Maybe a follow-up, if I may. Yes. It's just a detail, but so I see the last 3 half years, the tax rate was, I think, somehow slightly below the 14% that used to be the guidance. Is this now the level we should account with? Or is there something -- or has there been something in the 3 past half years that has reduced the tax rate somehow? And should we continue to account with the 14%?

Yes, there are certain small effects that have decreased it. And at the moment, we believe it should be around this level. But it's really depending on which country and which contributes how much to the net profit. But you're right, it came down a little bit, and we believe that it should be staying around at the level that we see at the moment. But it's fluctuating a little bit.

The next question comes from Michael Schulz from JMS Invest.

Can you hear me?

Yes.

So I have 2 questions. One is regarding to the interest income and the interest income going forward. If I look at your balance sheet, you have -- the vast majority of your assets are in Swiss prime residential mortgages, about CHF 4.5 billion. So of the customer deposits, CHF 6 billion, 3/4 or so is basically invested in Swiss prime residential mortgages, if you can say that. This generates probably the vast majority of the bank -- of the interest income of this CHF 30 million you had in the first half. So can you maybe elaborate a bit on how these Swiss prime residential mortgages generate interest? Is it variable? To what extent is it variable? How -- and kind of what is the floor of this? Because if your business grows, those positions probably will grow together with customer deposits. So there must be some kind of floor there, I guess.

Yes. Maybe we quickly run through the balance sheet on Page 18. The question might also be what happens if the SNB lowers the interest rates further. And this then would really depend on the SNB threshold. So at the moment, we have cash with the SNB of CHF 1.9 billion. And as long as the SNB keeps the threshold more or less at the same level, then this cash wouldn't be charged with negative interest rates. But the SNB is always adjusting the threshold depending on the goals they have. And the short-term investments, they would react quite quickly to new interest levels.

And now your question, the Swiss residential mortgages. here, roughly 80% of the mortgages are sovereign-based mortgages. So sorry, 80%. And they react quite quickly to new interest levels. However, they have a floor of 0%. So the baseline doesn't go to negative. So this Swiss prime residential mortgages wouldn't go below 0. So we have basically a floor here. And also interesting to know is that we have an interest derivative book of roughly CHF 1.2 billion. So out of those 80% mortgages that are sovereign mortgages, we swap CHF 1.2 billion artificially into fixed mortgages. So the duration here is a little bit higher than it would be if we just had 80% sovereign mortgages. And then I keep on going with the bonds, they also react with a delay of a couple of years in the average to new interest levels. Just to give you an idea how the balance sheet reacts to new interest levels. Did this answer your question?

And the fixed and the rate and kind of what is the swap paying? I mean, kind of -- so to get an idea of the floor, so the CHF 1.2 billion this swap, how long is this usually this fixed?

Yes. I mean what we do, we basically make a cap. So it has the same payout pattern basically as the floored sovereign mortgages. So the short lag that we pay never goes to negative. So it's also -- it's capped by 0. And the duration on the long lag is maybe in the average 8 years, maybe 7 to 9 years, something around this. So it would be like more or less the normal fixed mortgages that other banks would have.

Okay. Very good. And then I have kind of a bit a longer-term or philosophical question regarding the assets under management and clients. I mean, at the moment, your clients -- the growth of your clients is more or less similar to the growth of your assets under management, of course, adjusted for the performance. But in the longer term, would it not make sense that the number of -- or that the assets under management grow faster than the clients because a lot of clients you are getting, say, at the age of 55, 60 or so, they come without pension money and then the pension money comes in, maybe they sell their house or whatever and buying maybe a smaller flat gather still assets? Or am I wrong in this perception?

Yes and no. What you see here on Page 9 is -- of course, it's the net figure. What we have is a client book of retired clients that also have to use the money for their living costs. And so the 2 effects are netting out. So you have a little bit bigger clients coming in, but the existing base uses or consumes the money that is invested for their spending for living costs. And so you are a netting effect there.

So what is the more or less the percentage of the clients that is already in pension or retired?

It's a good question.

Just the majority.

I have the figures, but I don't have it. You know it, Rafael? Wait a minute. Here we go. No, it's not the majority that is retired. It's, let's say, maybe 1/3 of the client base is retired.

[Operator Instructions] It seems that there are no further questions, sir. Back over to you for any closing remarks.

So thank you very much for listening to our presentation, and thank you also very much for our very interesting questions. I wish you a good day, a good weekend, not too hot. I hope you have aircon in your offices. And let's -- yes, let's say we hear us maybe in the next few weeks or then in half a year. Have a good time.

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