OHB Aktie

Good morning from Bremen to OHB's Q1 earnings call. We are presenting here the results of the first 3 months of 2026. With me here is Tim Tecklenburg and online is also Markus Moeller. And I hope you have been able to download the materials we had published this morning on our website. I'll walk you through quickly through the slides what has happened, and then Tim will take over with the numbers.

We had a very good first quarter. And I'll just recap quickly a summary of who OHB is. We're a European champion in the space market in Europe. We're the biggest pure-play space prime, obviously, with a very strong German heritage. Currently, the markets are developing very well, strong market tailwinds from all kinds of institutional and commercial customers. So we see ourselves as a company that with its strong track record, outstanding technology, strong customer relationship is on a very good way and on a very good trajectory to grow the business successfully.

And when I say growing the business, we are increasing our footprint. Tim will show later a slide of the ongoing expansions that we are currently doing. And this will also be shown in the numbers that we have over the last years, but also especially now in this first quarter.

Our activity in the 3 domains very briefly hasn't changed in the last quarter. Space Systems is our satellite and system development part where in the past, we have developed big satellite projects here in Europe with Galileo, with third generation on the military side, Sar-Lupe and SARah.

Our access to space business actually has started because our customers needed launch services. So we started kind of a broker a long time ago when we started to build full end-to-end satellites. Now we are also in the business of developing a small micro launcher where we have a small -- where we have a significant share in company called Rocket Factory. We are hoping to see that launch taking place -- the first launch -- first test launch later this summer.

And we are the largest supplier into the Ariane 6 system as a structural supplier and also similar product range for a number of U.S. rocket manufacturers, mainly the biggest one being Blue Origin, but also others.

On the digital side, we are providing ground systems and operations and data analytics, and I will come to that later. Here's an overview of the company setup has not changed in the last 3 months with regard to what we published in the annual report 2025.

Just a quick run through what has happened in Q1. A very big success was the signing of the EPS-Sterna constellation. So it's a 20-satellite constellation with about EUR 250 million, largest contract ever for OHB Sweden is on the success of the Arctic Weather mission that was launched 1.5 years ago roughly. And yes, we're looking forward to complete that customer here is EUMETSAT . So it's an operational constellation that will be operated as part of the EUMETSAT weather satellite network.

Another important contract that we signed was the next planetary defense mission, OHB Italy signed with ESA Ramses contract. Ramses is a mission that will go to an asteroid that is coming pretty close to us within the GEO orbit. It will be launched by JAXA. Actually today, this afternoon, there will be a signing between JAXA, the Japanese Space Agency and ESA in Berlin of the agreement that JAXA will partner with ESA providing the launch.

So we're very optimistic that we will be ready for a launch in '28 because the asteroid will not wait. The asteroid will come on, if I remember correctly, it is a Friday, the 13th. I think it's Friday, 13 in April '29. So by that time, the probe needs to be where the asteroid is and -- in order to monitor it. So it will not a collision scenario, but it will be a monitoring scenario.

Another big success was the next step in our constellation Eaglet 2. We launched another 8 satellites. Now we have 16 operational. The remaining satellites -- the next 8 satellites will be launched later this year. So it's an Earth observation constellation with really interesting images. I looked at them recently. I'm very, very proud of the quality of the images that Eaglet is doing over the -- mainly over the Mediterranean for the Italian government.

Another success was the maiden flight of Ariane 64. So we are very proud to be part of the Ariane community as a supplier. And of course, this launch marked the solid booster version and the strong version, so to say. Approximately 20 tonnes into LEO orbit, very good performance. Congratulations from our side.

We did also have a new company established European Moonport company, which is our -- as the name it says, our approach of establishing a European moonport program. So the moon is obviously a very hot topic. We all have seen the exciting Artemis II images. We have seen how much excitement with the very successful Artemis II mission has created all around the world. And now Europe is also pushing very strongly to help to return to the moon.

And just as a reminder, 20 years ago, OHB has been the first with a Smart-1 mission, first European mission to moon. It was built out of OHB Sweden. And actually, I'm not saying it landed, but it crashed on the moon purposely. So we are obviously strong moon aficionados.

Another celebration we had 25 years ago, OHB was listed at the Deutsche Börse. At that time, at the Neue Markt, which was the growth market of 25 years ago. We are now part of the prime standard, and we have developed very well. If you look at the overall time line that you can see there, and I see on this chart, it's even the stock development over the whole 25 years. So started very low. It's almost not visible to see. But overall, much better performance than in the DAX over 25 years.

Ownership, just as a reminder, 65-plus percent, the Fuchs family at 28.6% KKR, which holds it through an entity called Orchid Lux HoldCo. The free float is very small at 5.7%. And at the same time, we, as the founding family are very happy to have been contributed to this and still holding the majority of almost 2/3. So we're very happy that in the 25 years, we grew the company from very small with 125 people to now 4,000-plus people.

With this, I'm turning it over to Tim to take the numbers.

Yes. Thank you very much, Marco. Highly appreciate it. And also thank you very much from my side that you are joining this call and also a warm welcome from my side. I'd like to provide you an overview on our financial figures as per Q1 2026. As Marco has mentioned, we had a good start in the year, and I will walk you through the key highlights from a financial perspective.

Starting with the order backlog. We continue to grow our order backlog on a level of more than EUR 3.35 billion of order backlog. This is another record level for our company and provides us with already good visibility for the years to come. The arrows show when the ministerial conferences took place. As you know, in November 2025, even here in Bremen, the last ministerial conference took place. And already now, we see that the first contracts are now coming. And we also see, as Marco has mentioned, market tailwinds from the European Commission maybe and also from other nations here in Europe where we are present in order to further grow and have the backlog growing.

For this record-high backlog we have already started to invest in the past few years. Right now, we have -- we are in 18 locations in 11 different countries. You're familiar with our structure. A few highlights of last year and ongoing investments is our expansion of our Bremen site, but also we'd like to highlight that we have already set foot in the U.K., starting with a new Bristol subsidiary. We have, in 2025, moved into a new factory in Sweden, also preparing for, for instance, already the Sterna contract that we just won in the Q1 2026.

And we, as also communicated, acquired a company for electronic components in Germany, in Saxony in order to prepare ourselves for the future growth, especially with regard to the industrialization of our satellite manufacturing, but also for sure, we are continuing our ramp-up for our components in the launcher segment.

Overall, as Marco has mentioned, around 4,000 people here. So that is we are growing and want to continue to grow and to hire. Here, the group in brief backlog, I already touched base up on our total operating performance, achieved a level of almost 280 million, which is really a 15% step-up in comparison to the Q1 2025. Our profitability measured in the adjusted EBITDA, has kind of grown also versus last year, showing that we are on the right track with a level of EUR 27.3 million, which is representing a 9.7% adjusted EBITDA margin. And we obviously want to continue this path, and we will do our best to continue to do so.

Overall, the development in the last years with regard to the Q1 figures, you see that our company is growing. This is basically also then shown in the full year figures. As mentioned, almost EUR 280 million total operating performance with profitability of EUR 27.3 million adjusted EBITDA and also an increased level of adjusted EBIT on a level of about EUR 16.8 million, so representing a 6% EBIT margin. So that is also in the EBIT, we are continuing our growth path.

And a quick outlook for the next dates that you might want to consider. On May 18, we'll conduct our Capital Markets Update. And on June 8, we will conduct our Annual General Meeting. And then the second half year is with the Q2 results, obviously, and then with the Q3 results in November. And basically, with that, we are kind of coming to the end of our slide deck. And thank you once again for joining and also for supporting OHB, which we really highly appreciate.

Yes. With this, I would like to start the Q&A session. [Operator Instructions] There's a raised hand already by Simon Keller from Numis. I would just add you as a panelist. Can you hear us?

I have a couple of topics that I would like to go through one by one, if that's okay. So firstly, on personnel, how are you progressing with hiring? Can you keep the order momentum? Like can you keep up hiring with the order momentum? Or are there any relevant challenges worth to be aware of? And also in this regard, I noticed personnel costs remain disciplined. Do you have any upfront expenses that we need to be aware of as you bring in new employees on board to ramp up for the super cycle?

So we are continuing to hire. You see the numbers. I always say we have more than 4,000 people because if we add the hires of April and up to now we are. So we are hiring quite fast. And we are hiring so fast that even our HR is not able to keep track of the hiring. I'm just laughing to myself because sometimes it's a time lag to find out how many people have been hired in that month, but we are doing it quite quickly. And obviously, it's difficult to hire good people because the space industry is booming.

So everybody in the industry is hiring people. So it's not so easy to find the right quality. But we are obviously offering a very attractive proposition, good compensation and an exciting job and obviously also hopefully, a strong growth in the future. There's no extra expenses attached to that. Obviously, sometimes we might hire people through headhunters. Yes, this is taking place. So we do have sometimes consultancy fees for headhunters, special occasions, but this is not something that should change any model.

If I may add to that, Marco, I'd like to highlight that those hirings are taking place in our core function of operational -- in our operations. So that is really focused on kind of fulfilling the customer contracts. And with regard to support function, we keep this rather flat.

Understood. Maybe one follow-up here. Where do you get the people from mostly? Are they mostly graduates? Or do you get some from automotive? Or generally, is the space industry large enough such that you can absorb them from, I don't know, other countries maybe or...

It's a mixture of everything. We are hiring a lot of young people directly from university, and those come from everywhere over Europe. We still -- I mean, we have done this since the last 15, 20 years, still have a strong community of colleagues from Spain and Italy and France. So we are very, very diverse. I think we have about 40 different nations in the company. So very international mixture.

We do also hire experts from the market. And sometimes, as you said, also from other industries. So it's really a mixture. Our HR team is very busy, and they're working on a long list. And again, we are an industry that is booming. Not all the industries are currently booming. So there are also people like [indiscernible], they are coming into space -- side entrants, they're coming into space and -- but it's a big focus on us, not so easy.

Okay. Next topic would be Bundeswehr orders. Broadly speaking, what capture rate do you expect from the German space defense budget? And is there maybe anything that has swung the needle in your favor over the last months?

Well, obviously, I think it's well known that, first of all, Germany spends a lot of attention and, of course, also money on increasing the defense efforts. Just I think, 10 days ago, there was a publication of the foresight of the German budget until the -- including the outlook until 2030. And you could see that there was -- it's foreseen -- this current government foresees a massive increase of the military spending up to EUR 180 billion per year in 2030, that's public is a public paper.

And obviously, if you think back some years ago, we were EUR 50 billion to EUR 60 billion per year. So it's more than triple, and it will go on in the direction of the 5% target of GDP, which is the current target for NATO. So that's the overall environment, and I think it's going on, and it's a stable increase.

And within this, space has been designated as a core topic, which is good for the whole space industry, including OHB. And we feel that a number of these topics are really well suited for us. So the bottom line is that the topics that the military, the Bundeswehr wants to do are really published. In November, they have published the space military strategy and it's online. And if you read this, you can see all the topics. And I can tell you that we are very much interested in almost all these topics. So we are teaming with one partner here and with another partner there, and we are looking -- sometimes we have already delivered proposals on other occasions, we are about to deliver proposals and on other occasions, we're just making thoughts about teaming options. So the bottom line is we are working hard on this overall opportunity, but nothing of that is already in the order book of this wave and nothing is in the current EUR 3.2 billion. This is something that is to come in the future. And knowing the process is, obviously, there is not just a proposal to be delivered, but also then a selection process, potentially, obviously, then negotiations and parliamentary approval and so on and so on. So long story short, this is not making us busy today, but we foresee this to be significant in the near future.

Okay. Maybe slightly more specifically, would you be willing or supportive of the statement where I say like 40% of this space defense budget from Germany could land up in your order book. Is that a fair assumption? Or do you think it's less or more for some reason?

I wouldn't call it a fair assumption. I would call it a great idea or a great statement. No, I don't know. I mean, honestly, we don't know. Honestly, there has been a budget publicly earmarked, which is said to be EUR 35 billion over the next 5 years, meaning on average, EUR 7 billion a year. And yes, we are one of the big space players in Germany, but others as well. So I don't calculate this in a quarter of that number because also after 2030, there's also a future within the '30s. So we will see also operating and replenishment and addition coming next. So my feeling is not -- I'm not looking of what the share of us is, but I'm looking that we are getting some of the topics that we are pursuing.

Understandable. Next topic would be Moonport. Do you plan to invest anything that is not funded, for example, to capture commercial activity?

Yes. Of course. I mean I don't believe that you can speed activities on the moon without any private activity. So yes, of course, there are institutional programs, and we are -- it's public that we are leading together with Thales Alenia space from [indiscernible] Argonaut. We have been involved in the moon, as I said earlier since a long time. But the whole idea of the Moonport company is also to attract private capital into the moon because the Moonport, as the name says, is the hub for logistics.

So the difficult thing in the past has always been to safely land on the moon. And many of the missions, a high quota of the missions was not successful in landing. So we believe like 500 years ago in the exploration of the world, the first thing you have to do is stable logistics, safe ports. That is the starting point of every exploration that needs to be done.

And that's why we believe there needs to be a starting point around a Moonport with a common logistics for that, it cannot be that everybody -- it is more efficient if you have a sharing of certain things like a stable ground, like energy and many other things. But yes, this is something we like to also invest in.

And last topic, Rocket Factory Augsburg. What are the key development steps ahead next to the maiden flight? And is there any consideration on your side to crystallize the embedded value, for example, via a separate listing?

The last question, no, we have no considerations on that yet. I mean we are focusing on the first launch -- I mean first test launch, as we should call it, because launching rockets is difficult. Launching rockets is risky, and we are humble people. We had -- 1.5 years ago, we had a -- let me say, I forgot the term, how people call it, but we had a faulty first stage test, an anomaly that destroyed the first stage when it was on the test site. So we are hoping for a launch later this summer.

The rocket is already in Scotland in SaxaVord at the launch pad, but it's still lying in the hall. It's not yet erected into a vertical position, but the team seems to be very, very, very busy. We completed the engine tests. We're working hard on the logistics, building up the telemetry and finalizing that. So the focus of our attention on Rocket Factory Augsburg's attention has shifted to SaxaVord. This is where people are busy now. So everything is at the launch pad and we hope that it's going to be successful. We will see. Whatever we define as success, but this is something we will have to talk about briefly before the launch attempt.

I can't see any further questions for now. I don't know if you will just give people another minute.

Yes, we should give people another minute. And what I'm obviously doing is I'm using it for advertisement. We have upcoming the ILA show in Berlin from June 10 to June 14. We have a very exciting booth. Hopefully, I haven't seen actually the plans yet, but I'm excited, and I'm sure it will be great. I'm absolutely sure that the show as a whole is worth coming. So everybody who has the chance should obviously come to visit us there. We will all be there. Come to ILA and look into the future of space.

No further questions still. So I think we can conclude this call for now.

Very good. Thank you very much, and thanks for your time, and let's stay in touch. And yes, hope to see you soon again in the upcoming events that Tim just showed.

Thank you also from my side.

Good morning. Welcome to OHB's earnings call for the Annual Report 2025. I'd like to welcome you here on behalf of OHB. We are here together with -- I'm here together with Tim, Tim Tecklenburg, our CFO; Daniela Schmidt and Kurt Melking, and we're obviously ready for questions. I hope you have been able to download the materials this morning. I will quickly walk you through the slides, and then Tim will take over for the financial part.

The OHB business segment has not changed. This is the same business segment chart that you saw in our Q3 results a couple of months ago. What has changed in the course of 2025 is that our ACCESS TO SPACE division has been changed because we took over 100% of MT Aerospace AG. We created the European Spaceport Company. And of course, in this part is also the Rocket Factory Augsburg in a few smaller parts.

Quick recap of 2025. We had multiple successes in launches in 2025. Very important was on July 1, the weather satellite MTG-S1, that's Sounder, as we call them. The Sounder satellite has been developed by OHB completely, the payload in Oberpfaffenhofen, very sophisticated optical payload, and the satellite platform and the overall satellite in Bremen here at OHB Bremen. We're very happy with the results. So that has been a very big success.

Successful launch also in August with the launch of our Earth observation satellite, NAOS, for the Luxembourg government. It's a military satellite that OHB Italy developed and built for the Luxembourg military, has been successfully launched.

In November, we had a batch of 8 satellite of Eaglet II satellites for an earth observation constellation called IRIDE for the Italian government. There will be more launches. So we're launching a full constellation for Italy.

And in December, we had another launch for Galileo first-generation satellites. And there will be 2 more launches on Galileo this year. So we're nearing the end of the full ramp-up of the Galileo satellites of the first generation.

If we look to 2025, of course, we have been able to secure a number of significant contracts. We had a business expansion. So one of the big successes was the LISA Science satellite that we won in a competition for the European Space Agency, ESA. It measures gravitational waves. I'll leave it there how this works in detail, but it's a very fundamental science mission that we believe we will hear very good news over the course.

We have been able to contract the deal with the DLR, the German Space Agency, the Heinrich operational contract for the operating services over the next years. And with ESA, we have been able to -- ESA and TAS Italy, we have been able to contract our share in the Argonaut mission for the independent European launcher earlier European lunar access program. So the Argonaut is a lunar lander that Europe will build for moon exploration, and we are a co-partner with TAS-Italy.

In terms of business expansion, we had our growth in Sweden. We inaugurated a new factory. And by the way, yesterday, we announced the Sterna contract, about EUR 250 million. For this contract, this facility has been developed and built.

We bought a company called OHB TechniSat now. I mean, OHB Vogtland now, we bought it from TechniSat company located in Schoneck for the industrialization and serial production. It will help us there. It's a small factory, but it will be helpful to ramp-up production capabilities.

We created a company in the U.K. in Bristol, OHB SPACE U.K. This is now in the buildup phase for -- actually for the assembly integration and test of big satellites initially in the frame of European Space Agency Science program. Total order intake was very significant in the SPACE SYSTEMS division with more than EUR 1.5 billion. That was a big success for Markus Moeller and his team and the whole company actually.

Here, you see a quick recap of the 2 investments that we made in Sweden and in Schoneck in Vogtland. Yes, I talked about it. I think I can move on. I think it's part of our continuous expansion. We are investing. Currently, we are building a new significant clean room in Italy in Torino for OHB Italy. You see growth there. As we can say in more general, OHB Sweden and OHB Italy are massively growing and are very successful. And obviously, that requires also new facilities and more space.

And U.K., I don't have a photo of the U.K. here yet because it's in the course of being implemented, but that's another focus of our investment that we will see in -- actually, I think, starting 2026 that we will invest in a significant facility there in the Bristol region.

MT Aerospace had a very successful year 2025. We took over the remaining 30% stake in MT Aerospace. So now we own it 100%. That has been a good step, I believe. The Ariane 6 business is ramping up. We signed recently the contract for the flight model 16 to 42, which obviously gives us security to plan over the next years to ramp up. We do have substantial contracts also from other rocket companies in the U.S. and elsewhere. And we have significant growth with regard to our military programs where MT Aerospace has a significant role also in military.

The digital activities, just summarized in one slide. We had a good order intake last year, EUR 250 million for our OHB Digital. And yes, I guess this is a business that was not very much in the highlight of the public attention, but it's a solid growth and a solid deliveries, mainly in what we call midstream, the antenna business, the ground segment operations, but also in the geospatial area where the commercial data resell is growing as well.

Last week, OHB celebrated its 25th anniversary of listing. We had the IPO completed on March 13, 2001. We went public at the so-called Neuer Markt. Since then, we are one of the few remaining successful companies listed previously at Neuer Markt. And if you just look at the numbers that at that time, the revenue was EUR 15 million, 1-5, with about -- with 125 people. And now 25 years later, it was EUR 1.2 billion with about 3,800 people. You see that we had a very busy 25 years. And actually, the shareholding at that point in time, the Fuchs family had about 70% and now we have 65.4%. So we have been able to grow substantially, massively over 25 years without significant dilution.

Yes, I mentioned it briefly yesterday. OHB Sweden has been able to finally sign the contract for EPS-Sterna. This is a big success, 20 satellites, EUR 250 million roughly is the volume for the development and building up of the satellites. I can say that I'm very happy to see these constellation successes at OHB in Sweden, but also in Italy with IRIDE. So we are able to succeed competitively in these markets much smaller satellites. This is the Sterna satellites are satellites in the range between 100 and 200 kilo, 150 kilo satellites. So that's a very different market segment from what you see in our capability in Germany or here in Bremen, but it's a lucrative market, and we can also be competitive there. And actually also with IRIDE and even smaller satellites, it's the 50-kilo class where we have been able to have a constellation implemented. And actually, as we saw, rolled out, that's quite a big success.

A quick view of what has changed and the development of institutional budgets is obviously one of the significant drivers of growth of the whole space industry in Europe. And there's a huge shift towards defense across key institutional budgets. You see that the geopolitical landscape, of course, creates a push for increased sovereignty across Europe. ESA has increased its budget at the last year's ministerial conference here in Bremen by about 32%, which is a significant growth for ESA as an institution, EUR 22.3 billion.

The European Commission has even bigger growth in their planned next multi-annual financial framework. We'll see more detail, but EUR 131 billion for defense, including space, is very, very significant, and space will play a significant part within this budget.

Next to that, obviously, Deutsche military, Bundeswehr, has a plan implemented for EUR 35 billion for space-based security infrastructure that has been announced by Minister Pistorius last fall, and that's a significant increase. And this is all part of the overall overarching increase in investment in NATO with the decision that was taken last year by member states to go up to 5% of GDP for defense budgets, 3.5% directly in military and 1.5% in infrastructure related to that.

So that basically, this one chart gives the overall picture of the boom that you now see in space around Europe.

A few details on the ESA budgets. I don't want to go into detail, but the EUR 22 billion have been broken down very, very specifically to the different lines of activity, earth observation, navigation, space transportation, and we are playing a good role in some of these bigger parts of ESA budget.

I mentioned the growth of the MFF for -- actually, it's the MFF proposal. It's the MFF proposal by the commission. And the proposal there is for the time frame 2028 to 2034 to have significant budget increases for Defense and Space in one budget. As you can see, comparing the numbers, the current budget line for the budget 2021-2027 is EUR 30 billion broken down the way you see it here in the EU space program and EU defense funding. And it was, in the previous budget cycle, 2014-2020, it was EUR 12 billion. So you see a massive increase, including defense funding, space programs and Horizon Europe, which is also taking care of Space and Defense. So we cannot obviously detail it down, but I think it's just a fundamental commitment of Europe or actually the commission so far to invest. That has to go through the approval process with member states, with parliament. Obviously, this might change, but I think it's a significant data point.

The EUR 35 billion for security-related space infrastructure in Germany is much more detailed. If you look to the website of the Ministry of Defense, you can see the German space military strategy, and you can see very, very detailed what Germany is planning to do. Of course, the geopolitical landscape requires in the view of the German government significant space infrastructure, significant buildup of capabilities. So a number of constellations are mentioned in this document. And as we can see that this is also being implemented, satellites, of course, ground infrastructure, on-demand launch capabilities, everything is mentioned there. So you will see Germany becoming a very active and leading partner in military investment and space.

So I hand it over to Tim to walk us through the financials. For the time being, thank you very much. But obviously, I'm here for questions.

Yes. Thank you very much, Marco. Also from my side, a warm welcome. Really great to have you in our call. As Marco has already mentioned, from our perspective, 2025 was also, from a financial year, a very successful year. We have grown. We have grown in all our segments. And I'm happy to walk you through the key financials right now.

As this is one of our key metrics, I start with the order entry. And we were able to kind of reach a level of EUR 2.1 billion in 2025, contributed by all the segments, as also Marco has shown, for instance, SPACE SYSTEMS segment with about EUR 1.6 billion. And this is a significant growth versus 2024 with a level of 23% and corresponding also in 2025 with a book-to-bill ratio of above 1.5, which is clearly a sign that we are growing.

As such, also our backlog is showing this growth. And as you can see here, we have reached a level of EUR 3.2 billion, which is an all-time high and provides us with a really comfortable outlook for the year to come. And it is also the fact that considering, and this is shown by the arrows here in the mountain chart, that after each Ministerial Conference, there was a time of growth in order backlog. And considering that we have already now when the Ministerial Conference took place in 2025 November in Bremen here, that we are already at an all-time high, provides in addition to the information given by Marco, also positive outlook for the future.

Looking into the KPIs into a little bit more detail, especially our total revenue grew by 25%, up to a level of EUR 1.25 billion, which is a significant growth. And it is also mirrored by the growing profitability. We were able to disclose an adjusted EBITDA of a level of EUR 125.6 million, which is also quite above the previous year stated adjusted EBITDA. And also related to that, the adjusted EBITDA grew to a level of EUR 84 million, which is also a relevant increase in comparison to previous year.

What's important for us to master the growth is that we also grew our employees, especially our operational colleagues that are the engineers, technicians that are really kind of doing [ to kind of move the growth ahead. ] I hear an echo. I'm not sure who that is. It's gone. All right. So overall, this is very also important that we grew in employees in order to fulfill our promises to the customers. And connected to that is also that on the support functions, we were flat rather also shrinking. So that is we are maintaining our cost controls as in the past.

Showing the development over the last years is showing that we are clearly growing. We have exceeded also the EUR 1 billion level of 2022 with the already mentioned EUR 1.25 billion. And we are surely aiming to continue this path with a level of about EUR 1.4 billion in 2026. And the same development, we want also to continue with the profitability. You see on the adjusted EBITDA and EBIT, we are clearly growing. And also we expect that we also grow to a level of about EUR 150 million, give or take, in 2026, which is corresponding to a level of 11% margin.

This growth is also nourished by our order intake. We see and expect also a growth here. And this is kind of based on the funds that were shown by Marco before. And on the right-hand side, you can see that there are opportunities in basically every segment in our portfolio and the different product categories, be it earth observation, SATCOM or also in the launch areas. As we see that also in 2025, as also already disclosed, our colleagues from the [ Aerostructure ] area where we kind of manufacture components for the Ariane 6 launch vehicle are growing significantly and also internationally. So overall, we see that we had a very successful year 2025. And for sure, it's also our ambition to continue this path.

And as such, I'd like to show you some highlights from our financial calendar. Today, our full year 2025 results call, then we continue our calendar with some conferences, but also then especially with the disclosure of our Q1 figures, and then in June, the general assembly.

With that, I'm closing the presentation. Thank you very much for your attendance. Once again, thank you very much for following in 2025, and we are looking forward to continue our discussions with you right now with the Q&A section, but also throughout 2026. Thank you for your support.

Yes. Thank you, Tim. I would like to open the floor for questions. [Operator Instructions] First one is Simon Keller from NuWays.

Can you hear me?

Yes. We can hear you.

Yes. To start, my question is, can you share any details on the SATCOMBw 4 tender? Would it be fair to assume that you capture 1/3 of the project?

Yes. Thank you for the question. Maybe we answer them one by one. As you know, on this program, we have released 2 ad hoc news in late January and in early March, where we give a statement to the status of this procurement process. Other than that, we are not in a position to comment on any details. We have obviously also seen media reports in the past weeks about it, and we have had many questions on it also in the -- from media. But beyond our ad hoc statements, we are not in a position to comment on any details. And this is why also speculating about potential share volumes is much too early from our side. And so we unfortunately cannot go into any details of that question.

Understood. Then 2 financial questions. On -- firstly, on personnel costs. In Q4, they have been noticeably low. What was the reason for it? And what personnel cost run rate should we assume into '26? And also on transformation costs in '26, do you expect any? And if so, at what level? And then I hop back into the queue.

Yes. Thank you very much. With regard to the personnel expenses, on the one hand, we weren't kind of getting all the colleagues on board as we would have expected. Overall, this was in line with the previous quarters. What you noticed correctly is that we had, as you know, one incident with 2024 with one project. And in course of 2025, we had been able to kind of make good progress on kind of dealing with the incident. And as such, it was the case that we, on the one hand, utilized provision that we built in 2024 for the cost of 2025, which were mostly personnel costs. And then in addition to that, we also kind of adjusted for this project with regard to all the expectations. And as such, this was also kind of by means of utilizing the provision and on the other hand, reducing the personnel expenses accordingly. So which is then a wash that is without any impact on the results.

And to answer your second part of your question with regard to the projection, we see that this should be in line with the previous quarter. So that is we will kind of continue the way it was in 2025 in the first quarter.

And then with the second question on transformation costs, I think that in the last year, we did made really good progress in our so-called [ Up to Champ ] program, which is a transition program, which we launched. And those kind of transformation costs were associated with those aspects. And we will continue in 2026 with the transformation, cost control, other project efficiency measures. But we don't expect as of now a level of the same magnitude as 2025, but we will see how this will play out in 2026.

Okay. One quick follow-up question then because you mentioned now this provision for the SARah project, I assume. Can you share how much of this provision has been released in '25? And is it now completely released? Do you still have something in your books? And do you expect something in '26 to be released as well?

Thank you very much. With regard to SARah, we had here, we have 2 components, which we kind of utilized in 2025. This is, on the one hand, the costs that were immediately associated with that and then also the adoption. And based on that, we are having in our books still a provision remaining level of about EUR 9 million. And we expect that in 2026, we also continue to really kind of finalize it. And so we'll utilize it most probably, but this is to be seen.

Okay. I can see no further raised hands. So maybe I just hand over to Marco for some closing remarks.

Yes. Thank you very much. Obviously, you have further time to think about it if more questions are coming. And I believe we will put this call online in the next hours or days or whatever. So obviously, should you have more questions, you can directly contact us at the Vorstand, but also, of course, Marcel for this. And I guess from my side, I can only say thank you very much for your attention into OHB. And from my side, I can only look here if you see at the Vorstand. This is today actually, I think, your last appearance at the earnings calls. And I would like to thank Kurt for his, I think, 37.5-year work at OHB. And obviously, for the last, whatever, 10 years or so at the Vorstand. And from my side, a big thank you. And again, I think by the end of the month, Kurt will retire. He will be staying close to OHB. But in terms of investor contacts directly, this is the final event we have together.

Last years for the support from your side. And from my side, it's everything okay. Now it's time to leave the go in retirement and after really successful and good years here at OHB.

Thank you. And I guess that's now a moment to close the call. Marcel is nodding, so there have not been further calls or questions coming. So again, thank you, and have a good day. And again, we very much appreciate your interest in OHB. Bye-bye.

Thank you very much.

Good morning. And welcome to OHB's Q3 Results Call. I'm here in Bremen together with Sabine Recke, with Kurt Melching and Tim Tecklenburg. And Markus Moeller is on the line from Oberpfaffenhofen. And as always, Marcel Dietz is managing the technique. I hope you have been able to download the information that was put on the web this morning.

As always, I'd like to walk you through the slides and report you on our Q3. We have very good numbers. We have very good developments. I guess, the situation at the company, but also the macro situation for space industry is -- as most of you know, currently very well, and I guess that's very important. So I start with a new flashy colorful business segment overview. This is work in progress. What has changed is the middle part. And you see obviously the same companies in SPACE SYSTEMS. But in the middle part, we have now renamed the business segment from AEROSPACE to ACCESS TO SPACE. We have also changed the fact that we only report majority companies. So you will not see minority participations anymore that in the past, you have seen in this so-called AEROSPACE division, the RTP participations or minority participations. This is all majority. And actually, it's all 100% owned by OHB with the exception of 3 things that is Rocket Factory Augsburg, we are not -- we're in a 55% shareholding.

OHB Digital Service, we have, as always, 74.9% and MT Management Services, we have 70%. What has changed is MT Aerospace AG, a company we own since 20 years. We had it in a partnership together with Apollo Capital. That's the company of Hans Steininger. And in the last couple of weeks in late October, we closed the transaction that we bought 30% from Hans. So I would like to thank Hans Steininger for his leadership at MT Aerospace for many years as the CEO, as a partner and as a friend, and we worked through many, many difficult situations, and we have put MT Aerospace at a successful trajectory. Obviously, now with Ariane 6 being on a successful path. Just recently, we had the third launch of Ariane 6 this year, very successful with Sentinel, and we will have another one actually coming up in mid-December with our Galileo FOC satellites. So this has been a very successful cooperation.

But now we believe that we need to focus more on growing this area. Obviously, you see our launch-related activities, ACCESS TO SPACE activities. The new kid on the block on this chart is the European Spaceport Company, has been reported recently a couple of days ago that we have created that company. And this is somehow a little bit following what we had with our GOSA activity. But obviously, what has changed is the first letter. We are not having a G there, which was the German Offshore part, but it's an E, it's a European Spaceport, and that tells the story of this company.

We'll come to a little bit more detail about that. What has changed in the other areas is minor, I guess. We have since some time OHB Space UK. in the SPACE SYSTEMS part. There you see -- in the SPACE SYSTEM part, you also see to explain that the companies that are not with a shadow like the little one, OSB -- OHB Space UK and OHB Hellas are not consolidated, same with European Spaceport Company and Rocket Factory in the middle column and with Blue Horizon in the DIGITAL column. Everything else is consolidated and part of our numbers.

And I guess, if you look more careful to this chart, it somewhat reassembles the geographic story. I didn't want to -- we didn't want to have this old chart anymore, which somehow projected a hierarchy of companies where the bigger companies were on top somehow leading the segment. This just tells the story. Yes, we have big companies, especially OHB System in SPACE SYSTEMS. But if you look on top of that, there's OHB Sweden and to the left on top is OHB Space UK. And to the very bottom, you have OHP Italia and OHP Hellas. So this looks like a map. That's the idea to -- that fuels the idea of a hierarchy within the business segments.

Similar attempt on the other side, on the other 2 arms. But again, main message here, we are now obviously pushing very much for our ACCESS TO SPACE activities with MT Aerospace, with Rocket Factory, with European Spaceport Company, with OHB Orbital Access and the supporting companies in the MT area. Yes, this is -- as I said earlier, this is work in progress. So it might look different at our next events Capital Market Day and our 2025 annual report. But what it really signals is that we are thinking a lot about how to put our group footprint to show that we are a strong space company servicing all areas, products like satellites, developments like that, ACCESS TO SPACE with rockets and obviously, ground infrastructure and data in the DIGITAL area.

We did have 2 successful launches in Q3. Very important on July 1, first day of the quarter was for ESA, EUMETSAT, the MTG-S1, the sounder, very successful launch campaign. First images really underscore our expertise, and they are better than expected. So we are very happy for that mission to be a total success. The next one is an imager coming up that's ready for launch later this year. The MTG-I2, second one is in thermal vacuum test -- or has been in thermal vacuum test, has been completed. So that was a very successful mission.

Other very successful mission, obviously, at this time when military missions, earth observation missions are very important is our NAOS satellite by -- call it NAOS satellite by -- which is owned by Luxembourg. We have been able to have a successful launch on August 26, has been developed and built by OHB Italia as a prime contractor. Initial orbit tests have been successfully completed. So we're working on the commissioning phase and has been launched out of the United States with the Falcon rocket. And again, it's another example of OHB Group having a product for the earth observation needs of our partner countries. We're very happy about this mission, and it is a smaller segment. It's a cheaper and, let's say, more commercially versatile mission, which, again, is hopefully also attracting interest in the markets.

Yes, I little bit talked about this already at the other chart. We have completed that takeover. We are now a 100% shareholder. We believe very much in now the ramp-up of Ariane 6 production and the other products we have in the global launcher vehicle market as components. And obviously, we like to position also this area stronger in the military market. So Ariane 6 is on a good path. We are working on the next components or the next ship sets, which is, as you see here, flight models 16 to 42. I guess, currently, these days, we are working already on flight model 18. So this has been successful.

And by the way, the building you see here, I don't know if you're aware of this, that's the MT Aerospace facility in Bremen at night. This is actually a real photo. We are right next door to ArianeGroup Germany's headquarters. We have a facility to weld the big tanks for the upper stage. This is going to be much more busy now. And hopefully, that will then cope with the ramp-up. And I can only say that we all have been very critical with Ariane 6 over the last years. Currently, it's really going well. I think the ramp-up is good. The demand is there, institutional and also others. And we are very happy to see that Ariane 6 is the flagship of the European access to launch capabilities.

And this -- actually, the photo is still an AI photo, I have to say, or not a photo, but an AI image. And we are reshaping hopefully, Europe's ACCESS TO SPACE by establishing the European Spaceport Company. This has been done -- I mean, the space launching has been done a long time through our MT Aerospace operations that we do to support our products in Kourou. We have done, obviously, initial studies to work on the European offshore spaceport. It was more financed at that time as a national program. But yes, this is something we believe is an attractive activity for Europe to have a more resilient spaceport launch ground infrastructure capability.

Another sign of growth has been in September that the opening of our new facility in Stockholm, OHB Sweden. We have invested in a new building. We have really now a much, much bigger facility, more than 1,000 square meter clean room, new offices in order to ramp up the manufacturing of our satellite production around the InnoSat platform. We have a lot of successful sales there, a couple of missions. We're still waiting to finalize the EPS-Sterna contract, which is moving slower than we expected. But I guess that we're now making good progress. I guess, the fundamental, let's say, negotiation points have been dealt with very positively recently. So we are looking into an optimistic future here.

What we have done recently as well is we have acquired a company called TechniSat, Vogtland. You see the building. Actually, the TechniSat logo is the real one. I mean the OHB logo has just been put outside of the window for an event. And if you look at the photo, you see a palm tree. This is not a palm tree country. This is the Vogtland of Saxony. And -- but I believe that this palm tree still survives the weather conditions there. So it's a very nice landscape, and we had a short notice opportunity to take over the TechniSat facility. We believe that this helps us to ramp up for serial production. We believe that this strengthens our German footprint and establishing sovereign national supply chains for critical satellite components.

And Saxony is a very supportive environment. We have been active already since a couple of years in Görlitz through our OHB Digital activities. So now on the other side of Saxony at the very western tip in the Vogtland, we have now this little company. We're taking it, by the way, over on January 1. So this has been signed, and we enter the notary. We bought the buildings and everything, but the effective date will be next year. So we are very thankful to the support we got from the Saxony state government. And of course, also from TechniSat, I would like to thank the TechniSat team for the constructive and positive and quick negotiation and implementation of that acquisition.

So now comes Tim. He sits next to me on my left. Tim Tecklenburg was appointed by the supervisory taking over the CFO position starting September 1. So it's now already 2.5 months almost. And Tim comes to us with a big background in space and defense industry. Recently, he was working in Switzerland as the CFO of Aebi Schmidt Holding, before that with RUAG Space in Switzerland. And RUAG Space is a company that is now Beyond Gravity which is, of course, a long-term partner. So we know Tim also since that time. Before that, he was at Rheinmetall Defence Electronics here in Bremen, Germany. And he succeeded Kurt, who is also with us as a CFO starting on September 1. And Kurt has now assumed the role of -- is continuing to be [Foreign Language]. He has now assumed strategic projects, and we have lots of complex strategic projects. So I'm very happy that Kurt helps Tim to start the business as CFO and to get used and take over the complex work.

And this is the moment when I hand over to Tim.

Thank you very much, Marco. It's great to be on your team. Looking into the financials as of Q3 2025, we are starting with the order backlog. And the order backlog as of September 30, 2025, accumulates to a level of EUR 3.1 billion, which is a record high level. As this graph shows, we are continue our growth path, and we expect that our backlog is kind of continuing growing also throughout the next year. So as such, we are continue our growth path and also for the next months to come.

Looking a little bit more detail into the financial figures. Our total revenue accumulates to a level of EUR 864 million, which is quite significantly above the level of the Q3 figures in 2024 of a level of EUR 716 million. Connected to that, we were able to improve our profitability further and disclose a level of EUR 75.5 million in EBITDA. I'll get into that a little bit later into more detail. Also our EBIT, that is earnings before interest and taxes increased in comparison to the last reporting period of -- to a level of EUR 46 million almost. And as a matter of fact, one of our key challenges to master the growth that is already in our book and that is we are expecting to come. We need more technical colleagues here on board, and we also succeeded in the first 9 months of the year 2025 in getting new colleagues on board, accumulating to more than 3,660 people.

And with that, I'd like to focus more on the revenue. As I've already mentioned, total revenues accumulated to EUR 864 million in the first 9 months, which is a growth of more than 21% in comparison to Q3 2024. And also our EBITDA is growing from -- by more than 21% in comparison to the first 3 quarters of 2024, up to a level of EUR 70.6 million. Our aim is clearly to grow profitable. And as such, it's also highlighted in the box on the lower right-hand side that also our EBIT margin continue to grow up to a level of 5.3% in the first 3 quarters.

As also pointed out by Marco, our goal is clearly to become the European space champion. And as such, as you know, we are on our way to improve effectiveness and efficiency in our businesses. And this, we continue also in 2025 with a deliberate program showing also good progress. And as such, we were also able to reduce, we call it, transformation costs and adjustments. And in a like-to-like basis in comparison to last year, we see an EBITDA of adjusted EUR 81 million, which is quite significantly higher than the adjusted EBITDA in the first 9 months of 2024. And that is like-to-like, we are also growing and growing profitable.

Looking ahead, we continue our growth. We resume our guidance here for the full year 2025. And as this graph shows, we will continue to grow strongly in terms of total revenue and also in terms of profitability. So that is -- our aim is clearly to continue to grow in the midterm. And also for the next year, we see an increase of a level of EUR 1.4 billion in revenue as well as an EBITDA margin around 10% as realistic as of now. We are in a project business, and we are continue to grow and grow profitable.

And with that, I hand over to my colleague, Markus Muller on the line from Oberpfaffenhofen.

Yes. Good morning. Also from my side here, a quick outlook on the growth path that we see ahead. You see history and the current forecast that we have for '25 and '26, and we will complete this next year with the years '27 [Technical Difficulty] as we're currently in the planning cycle. So for 2025, we believe that we exceed the EUR 2 billion mark in order intakes. We're waiting actually for one larger project to close, to maybe exceed the number that you can see here. But as you always know, there are cutoff effects specifically with our customers that have to organize themselves in a positive way to sign. So we'll see if we have a positive surprise in 2025 or not. But I think the level that you see here is confirmed.

In 2026, from what we can see today, we'll be around EUR 3 billion. We have a detailed planning in place here as well. What is interesting, and maybe that's one of the comments, most of this order intake does not yet reflect investments specifically from the upcoming ministerial conference, so where the ESA budgets will be renegotiated, taking place in Bremen actually in 2 weeks. It does not include also the investments made by Germany in September, where there is the investment plan on the defense side to invest EUR 35 billion as this is just running up in terms of procurement process. So this is something we're working on and that will certainly have, as we hope, a positive impact starting '27 and '28.

And with that, I hand back over to Marco.

Yes. Thanks. Thanks, Markus. So for me, just to conclude with the financial calendar. The next upcoming event will be our Capital Market. It was a little bit back and forth on the date and the timing and the format. We now fixed it at January 20. In terms of the format, what we have changed is that we will start around midday and then we will do our event, and we will end up with a dinner. So we will not have a dinner before, but we'll have a dinner on the same day that fits better with some scheduling. So for all of you that are making plans to visit the Capital Market Day, obviously, Marcel is the right man to talk to for the details and the programming, which is coming up soon. And again, it will be not a [ programmed ] dinner, but a dinner on the same day.

What else we have? Obviously, then March 19, we come out with our full year's number. Then a big event will be -- whatever big event, we'll have our [Foreign Language] Annual General Meeting on June 24. And everything else is running as we always do. We have in May, in August and in November, quarterly reports coming up. So this outlines our year up to come, and we're working hard to prepare our Capital Market Day with all the typical information because as you noticed, the space is a very, very busy place, and you saw the numbers that Markus was referring to.

Lots of things are going on, very fast moving in many ways, the markets. So big event now is the ESA Ministerial in actually less than 2 weeks here in Bremen. We are very optimistic about that. But obviously, the big budget announcements that were done and mentioned by Markus is not fully in our -- or not in our numbers are something that we look at and wait for the year 2026 as our main, let's say, area of work. So thank you very much. And I'm moving over to Q&A. And I believe, Marcel, we do have already questions. So please open the floor.

Yes. As always, feel free to raise your hand if you have any questions as Henry Wendisch already did. I will put you on the call as a panelist, one sec. And you should be able to tell us right now.

Congrats on the results. It show definitely the right direction. I have a couple of questions, I think, one for Markus first. I've seen in the news that the French and German MoDs, they signed this JEWEL, ODIN'S EYE project that they were going to pursue this. And I've seen you have some, I think, on Page 15 on the slides, big order intake and earth observation. So I was kind of wondering if that someone are connected in that sense, so we expect an order intake for ODIN's EYE and maybe if you can elaborate on this, what size can we expect here also? I guess it's a rather big order, might go into the billions even. So what is there to expect for us here?

Happy to do so. So yes, the cooperation between France and Germany was reinforced during the Toulon meeting. As you know, we are the consortia leader for ODIN'S EYE, now in the second phase, building what's called a demonstrator with roughly 40 companies across Europe. So we'll see what phase -- how Phase 3 will unfold. That certainly depends also on discussions on the European level in Brussels as the European member states are preparing as a community for the multi-financial framework as it is called starting in '28 and running then up to 2034.

And we certainly expect that parts of the projects will be also funded there and interconnected with other investments in space. There's this first suggestion out on the total number, not for this project that suggests that also the European community will maybe double the current spending when it comes to space details to be discussed with the member states. What is happening currently is that there will be -- this project will be based -- build in phases. Obviously, this is a long-term engagement. And what we expect probably next year already that a portion of this will be commissioned with the industry. We're, let's say, looking very much forward to make an offer on this one to put that in place. So it's not one big signature that will happen with a large billion number. It will be in chunks and by member states, but we're confident that Germany specifically will move in, in the direction of first implementation starting next year or early 2027.

Great. That helps me perhaps honestly quite a lot. Then let's move on to another question. I mean you touched upon this. We see sort of across the board increasing defense spending and also civil spending regarding ESA, I think, in 2 weeks already. So maybe you can elaborate a little bit more so how much budgets might increase at ESA. I've heard or read in the news that Director General is asking for the EUR 22 billion. Maybe you've heard something, another figure that is floating around or it's just too early stage to tell. But what's sort of your take? I think at least EUR 20 billion might be in the cards, which is just my outside view here. So what is your take on this?

Well, the general take is that Europe in total in the next years will massively increase spending on space. So you may want to call it a hot market, but the ministerial conference that's happening now determining the budgets until end of '28, the German defense spending on space, which has been announced in September and will unfold until 2030. And then also, as I said before, the MFF '28 prepared by the member states and then going until 2034. You can assume if you look at those numbers, just in total, there is a EUR 20 billion to EUR 22 billion range on the ministerial. There's a EUR 35 billion number that was announced in September in Berlin. And there is, from what we understand, and this is very early stage, but public information that there is a EUR 30 billion investment proposal in space on the European level.

So we're talking in general of a confirmed investment of roughly EUR 80 billion. And not all of that is new. This is continued investment in continued life, but specifically in Germany and on the EU level, we'll see new programs arising on which we are actually preparing. Last number we have is an official number, at least for -- we can only look closer in Germany. I mean, it's EUR 4.5 billion. There are rumors on EUR 5 billion. Industry, as you know, has claimed very early EUR 6 billion. We have constructed a program that runs around EUR 5 billion that we'll see given our positions and also connecting this to the -- what we believe are projects that are good investments. As always, as you know, these things are being negotiated, discussed and fixed almost a couple of days before and during the negotiations. So we'll have a very, I would say, interesting weeks ahead, and we'll see which number the member states will agree. Yes, but the trend for space currently is positive.

All right. Very interesting. And then I think we stay on the space industry as a whole, we've seen some news regarding competition, but also your key partners, with the so-called Project Bromo now being paving the next step. What's sort of your take? I've seen an interview that Marco has given recently that you work on a press, in an antitrust case here. So maybe to put this into perspective, it could be, I think, a mix of 2 in my view that either you're going to go out stronger before because ESA wants to or even your customers in general want to keep a healthy supplier base or it could also pressure you at some point. And it's hard to say if it's a net positive or net negative. But what's sort of your take on this and how can we think of it in a more pronounced way?

Yes. But maybe I'll take this Markus. Obviously, this is happening around us. Consolidation is going on. There are obviously independent considerations why this is happening, why this is perceived as a strengthening. For us, this is concerning. We are concerned about our role in the space industry, especially on the European level. It is very well known that we have been very strongly working together with Thales Italy, Thales France, and this impacts our teaming opportunities. This impacts our supply chain opportunities. So we are concerned. And yes, we mentioned that. We will continue to mention that. We are concerned about this.

And in a growing market, it's a question why consolidation is going on. And again, for us, it's not to judge the reasoning, but it's -- for us, it's creating an environment where we feel that our European business model is coming under pressure and is being threatened. And obviously, we believe that institutional customers want to continue to have competitive offerings. And this is something that we will obviously actively communicate in the next weeks and months. So we hope that the result at the end will be one of a competitive landscape in Europe because we should keep in mind that the overall markets in Europe are strongly institutional.

This is mainly taxpayers' money, and this is something we have to keep in mind. It's not commercial, dominated market segment and looking at international competition with regard to, for example, launches, is not part of this transaction. This is a satellite [ part, ] let's say, concentrated industrial footprint. So we will be vocal. We will defend our interest, but we are obviously also open to discuss with everybody involved, governments, industrial players, regulators in order to raise our concerns and our view.

Right. And then I have 2 more questions, I think. Nice to meet you, Tim, by the way. [ I'm pleased to meet then ]. So first, I've seen that the transformation costs are coming down sequentially. Should we see this as an indicator that the transformation or at least the cost that you incur for the transformation are sort of nearing an end? What time horizon can we think of this transformation, still going on maybe also into 2026?

Yes. Thank you very much. I also thank you for the good question. Overall, our transformation program is ongoing. We have made good progress. We are kind of growing profitability. And I -- from my point of view, being new in the company, I think we have already made really good progress. And with regard to efficiency measures, we will continue to do so. But most of the, let's say, actions are already kind of implemented for sure. Also to mastering the growth of the future, we will continue to work on industrialization efforts and efficiency efforts. So it is -- we're going to continue to transform into an even better company. But with the transformation, we are really kind of satisfied so far.

Right. And then my last question so for you is I've seen in the news that this project interference that you booked a provision for in the last quarter, Q4 2024, that has sort of worked out, at least what the news say. And for me, this implies that this provision might be reversed in the course of maybe Q4, Q1, something like that. Is that something you can confirm for us? Or this is my early analysis here?

Yes. I think you are kind of on the one hand, well informed. But on the other hand, it's still project business. We see really very good results coming out of our efforts to kind of remediate those impacts that we had. But as of today, it's too early to kind of really say, okay, we do -- we can release or not. We are very positive on our progress here from a technical term, but you will kind of reconcile that it's now a little bit too early as the year is still ongoing and also the progress is still ongoing.

Thank you, Henry. Maybe we just give everyone just a bit more time to raise your hands. There are no raised hands at the moment.

Yes. If there are no further questions, I'll do the wrap-up block. Next week, we have the Space Tech Expo fair here in Bremen. That's the week before the ministerial. So each of everybody is obviously invited to come to Bremen to visit not just OHB's booth at the fair. It's the biggest space fair. You will learn a lot. You will see the industry booming, and it's very -- I think it's a very cheap entrance, I guess, it doesn't even cost anything. So it's fully paid by setting out the booth. So I would love to see you there. We will all be there in person. You can not only see OHB, as I said, many, many other very interesting companies around this. This is the event to be. So please check your calendars, and those of you who are already planning, make sure that you stop by. Thank you.

No further questions. So I think we can conclude this call for now. Thank you for everyone who joined for all your contributions. And then we will see each other at the Space Tech Expo or at our Capital Market Day in January. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you very much. Bye-bye and good night.

Good morning. Welcome to OHB SE's earnings call for Q2 for the 6-month results 2025. I'm here in Bremen with Markus, Markus Moeller; with Sabine von der Recke; and Marcel Dietz, he's not on the screen, but he's there, and he's supervising everything. And Kurt is also there. He's connected in from remote. So -- and I welcome you all on this call. Like always, I will walk you through the slides quickly. And then obviously, we have time for Q&A. I hope you have been able to download the documents. Marcel is nodding. He said he put it all online and everything was okay, and that is very good.

Maybe just to start, I think the first half of 2025 has been a good 6 months. I think the numbers are well underway. We are quite happy about this, and maybe Kurt will answer this a little bit later on, but I think we're on a good way to achieve our goals. If we look at the overview of the group, nothing has really changed this quarter. We had a few slight changes last -- in the beginning of the year with OHB Space U.K., and we regrouped OHB Austria. So this is currently our business segment overview. Of course, we are looking at it. We are seeing, of course, how to cope with the significant business that we have mainly in the Space Systems area. Of course, there is, I think, in Europe, but worldwide as well, but also in Germany, a lot of expectation for space work, satellite work. But for the time being, this segment is as it is and will probably be the same by the end of this quarter. And maybe we will look at it in the forthcoming months in the fall.

Just a few highlights. The biggest highlight actually that we had was the prime contractor win that OHB System had for the Lisa contract. This is really a very, very special and very important win that we had with the European Space Agency. It's the first L-class mission that we are doing. It's a large -- L stands for large. It's the first time OHB has been selected to lead an L-Class. PLATO is an M class, M is medium-sized mission. So for us, it's in terms of size. And the contract is EUR 839 million. It's a long-running project. You see the mission will be completed in 2035.

But if you look at what this mission is doing, it's really unbelievable and has really fundamental meanings for -- actually for mankind. I better read it. It's the detection of low-frequency gravitational waves and conclusions about the properties of their sources. So yes, I'm not sure if Markus is ready to take questions on this later but it's fundamental physics.

Hopefully, we will try to discover dark matter and do a new map of the universe. That's what we do in [ OHB ].

Yes. A couple of other highlights we had -- of course, we are moving along very well with implementing programs. The biggest success clearly was the MTG-S1 launch, the sounder, first sounder, very important mission for us. We work very long on it, and it has been successfully launched on July 1. And it's now also in the first couple of weeks, the operations go very well. Commissioning goes very well. GARAI-B is another satellite built in Sweden based on our InnoSat platform will be launched later this year. So we are moving along quite well.

First -- for OHB Czechspace, a big success. First win of leading a space aircraft out of the Czech Republic for us. This is now a selection of 4 missions overall from the whole Czech space industry. We have been selected, but there will be a down selection following next year. So moving quite well.

If we go to the Aerospace segment, MT Aerospace is doing okay. We had a couple of deliveries. Work on Ariane is moving along. We are waiting for the next Ariane 6 launch, which is supposed to be later this month. I think it's still scheduled for late August. And then we will see if there are more launches coming, so it moves quite well. And also in the digital segment, we're doing quite well. The Flyeye telescope, which is an unbelievable project, also similar, I guess, in many ways to the scientific things we're doing as we're watching from the ground has been first images of new earth observations.

This is obviously now our pride, the development of order backlog. For the first time in the history of OHB, we have EUR 3 billion-plus order backlog. So you can see here this chart goes back all the way to 2008, '08. So it looks back for like 17 years. And you see how slowly the order backlog increased. But you can typically see these peaks and these valleys follow typically there is a cycle of ministerial conferences. And in a way, this valley between the last peak in 2020 and now is a little bit broader valley, but it basically -- yes, it came now with Lisa and with other things to the record high of EUR 3 billion. We will talk about this a little bit. Markus has a few slides on that one.

So if I look to the numbers, to summarize, very good order backlog compared to last year, almost double. Total revenues for this first 6 months are good, 20% increase. The EBITDA significantly higher. Adjusted EBITDA also higher. You saw -- you see here, we have less adjustments. There will be another slide following on this. EBIT is good. Net profit after minorities more than double. So we are quite happy EUR 0.59. Headcount, by the end of June, we had 3,552. I guess now as we speak of today, it's 3,600 and something we are hiring all over. So company is developing well. This is what I meant when I initially said that we're on a good path forward.

Here you see total revenues of the 6-month results over the last 5 years, actually this year and the last 4 years. Profitability, these are not adjusted numbers. These are the reported numbers. So you see obviously that the adjusted numbers are increasing more than the reported numbers, especially on EBIT level, but that's normal. We had massive transactions. We have significant one-off effects related to our transformational project we have since the change in our shareholding. And so we are quite happy with this chart, but we obviously also show the reported numbers as a backward-looking comparison.

Here, you see the reconciliation of EBITDA to adjusted EBITDA. And I guess, if you compare the 2 years, you see what I just said that the adjusted EBITDA, first of all, is 13% up from EUR 40.7 million to EUR 45.9 million. And the adjustments are just smaller than they have been in the previous year. The transformation costs are down to EUR 2.5 million. That's less than half of what it was in the year 2024. So we believe we are on a good path to reach our goals, and we are happy with the EUR 45.9 million as adjusted EBITDA in this year.

Financial outlook has not changed. It's the same set of numbers we are communicating since our Capital Market Day in mid-January this year. We feel comfortable about this. Of course, the projection of EUR 1.2 billion. And of course, the projection of 9% EBITDA -- adjusted EBITDA and profitability of EBIT of 6%. That's quite what we feel comfortable, and we believe that we're on a good path also to the main message of this is that we see now revenue growth, and this is obviously substantiated by the backlog record. But we also feel that margin increase is on a good way. So we'll see next year, there will be, of course, pressure to go to 10% and 12%, but we believe that this is something that is achievable.

So this is the chart of -- Markus, do you want to explain this chart?

Yes, real quickly, just to give you an outlook on where we think the orders will go. As you know, we always do a very detailed planning a year ahead of the current year. And so we confirm that we see a positive outlook of growing order intake. We believe that this year, we could surpass the EUR 2 billion mark. We stand as of half year at EUR 1.5 billion out of the EUR 2.1 billion that we currently see in our scenario. So the pipe has been significantly front-loaded this year in comparison to the other years, and we believe there will be 3 larger deals that are under a good way, one in Italy, one in Sweden and one here in Germany. That will bring us close to the EUR 2 billion mark, which would be then also a growing order intake as we enjoyed that since 2023.

Of particular attention is 2026 as we see that many of our large institutional customers have the intention to sign extensions of our program lines in 2026, specifically in ESA, the EU programs, but also the national customers that we have in the defense arena. So we'll review that number now in September with the decisions also that are being taken by our customers and then baseline by end of this year, the numbers for 2027 and 2028. The reason why we rebaseline is specifically that ESA has the ministerial conference here in Bremen by end of November, where the budgets will be set for the coming 3 years. So we'll take that into account. And also, we'll see now the first budget proposal from the EU for the MFF, so the multi-financial -- multiyear financial framework, where things like Galileo, Copernicus and also IRIS2 are being included. So we'll take that into account, too.

And we will have by end of this year also a better view on what the national customers are planning for the next year so that we will be able to communicate a new outlook, I would say, early January on the order intake. But in general, it will stay positive. And our ambition is that 2026 will be around the EUR 3 billion mark in terms of order intake for 1 year.

Yes. Well, thank you very much. Thanks, Markus. Maybe 2 other things I'd like to mention. The first one that 2 weeks ago, we have completed a refinancing, which is obviously not part of the first 6 months, but in mid- to late July. So we were very happy that we have been able to do this. This has separately been communicated that helps us to have a long-term stability in the financing. We have increased our facility to EUR 350 million, and we are now having 5 years plus 2 years options on this. We have been able to improve our conditions there.

We are very grateful to the banking consortium and to the whole team, especially under Kurt's leadership, Kurt's team has done a marvelous job in doing this. So thanks to everybody involved in that. I have also been supported by our advisers and attorneys on this. So this has been very successful as something, let's say, after the 6 months period, that's adding stability to the overall development. Obviously, that together with what you see here as a chart and what we all have seen in the past months, that Germany has changed its policies on spending, especially defense spending.

And you all know very well that in between governments after the election, even the constitution has been changed to allow for much higher defense spending. And of course, now also with the NATO commitments that were done at the NATO Summit in Holland in June with a 3.5% plus 1.5%, total of 5%. The system, the defense industry system, the military plannings all over NATO, obviously, especially that accounts for European NATO members is very different. So money is available, and this is also reflected here in the growth changes a lot the perspective of money. It used to be the mantra that there was no money and time was not critical. Now it's the other way around. Now money is available and time is very urgent. So this has had a very positive impact on the outlook of business there. That's one thing.

Maybe another information looking back to what also happened in the first 6 months in June, we had our annual meeting, our annual assembly, Hauptversammlung, where we had the dividends at the same level as before with EUR 0.60, and this is obviously following our dividend tradition. We have reelected 3 of the sitting Supervisory Board members. And it's now -- we are now at a situation where the overall shareholding with OHB with the Fuchs family 65.5%, KKR 28.6% and the free float 5.7% is for the time being stable. This is the good scenario that we work under. We are feeling very comfortable with this. We are, of course, also happy to have this framework of communication that we have here now with you, and this will remain in place for the future -- for the next future.

So we will see -- coming to the financial calendar, we will clearly also see beyond this next Q3 earnings call, we will see also for next year '26 earnings calls as a listed company. So we will remain, for the time being a listed company. And Marcel, you have to take at our agenda that we have to fix those dates. I can also assure you that we will have another Capital Market Day in January. It has not been fixed yet. And -- but I can assure you that at the next Q3 date in November at the latest, we will communicate the dates for next year. So we will go on as a public company, as a PE company, as a family company, and this is something that we are very comfortable with.

So now I'm moving to the Q&A session. And I look to Marcel to see if he has any questions so far if anybody is interested in asking some questions.

[Operator Instructions] Henry Wendisch from NuWays.

Can you hear us? I think you're still muted, Henry. I hear you -- thank you. Thanks for joining the call and asking us, obviously, since we're only having 5.7% free float, the public interest is not as big as it used to be, but I'm very grateful that you're still interested in Space and OHB.

Yes. Well, the stocks performed quite well over the year, I think also from the -- from the defense and infrastructure spending boost, it's one of the benefactors actually. I have a couple of questions. The first one, I think, is more to Markus regarding, I think ExoMars, it's back on track, and I was quite positively surprised because I was -- I always had the impression that there are some parts stuck in Russia and the collaboration obviously has stopped. So it looks like it's back on track and it's going to Mars in 2028. So what happened there cooperation-wise? Did Germany step in or U.S.A. step in to fill in the part of Russia? Or what's driving this positive transformation here?

Yes, ExoMars itself, it's specifically ESA in France that stepped into the mission to complete it from that perspective. Yes, we have portions of that mission, but it comes to -- I think there's a continued interest on Mars, specifically from the French scientific community and that helped to start to complete that program. Obviously, there are changes that have been -- will be made, have been made to accommodate for the new circumstances, but I think that is the essential driver in that program.

It's now called Rosalind Franklin, the mission, right?

Yes, it has changed name too.

ExoMars name was not appreciated by everybody, and then they decided Rosalind Franklin, she was a British scientist, right?

And there was a previous mission that was successful with a, let's say, a similar challenge on [indiscernible] on a foreign object with lower gravity. And so I think that's the reason why that name changed, yes.

So don't get confused. ExoMars will not be launched. Rosalind Franklin will be launched.

In terms of numbers, it's -- of course, it adds to contributions that we have in the -- for the scientific community. But in terms of the, let's say, overall outlook that we have in the numbers, it's a rather small part, yes. On our side as a partner, yes.

Yes, you're not a prime contractor on this year, like...

Yes, exactly, exactly.

Interesting. Okay. And then I think next time we will speak is November and shortly after that is the ESA Ministerial Conference, and you touched upon this briefly. I was wondering because I couldn't find anything yet publicly. There were like -- in the months before, there were like discussions or like first budget proposals or anything like this. Is there anything like this that we can -- or like any tangible things you can talk about here that maybe that could act as a positive surprise regarding the budget.

I mean, we like to put this into perspective, I think over the last also 1 or 2 years, we've seen national budgets, for example, in Germany, they were about to decline for space spending, but they were about to increase at the European level. I think now national budgets with the debt break being gone are prone to rise again more, but maybe at the expense of the European budget. So how can we think of this development globally?

Well, obviously, we hope that that's not the case. I mean our aim is to, of course, promote a significantly increased subscription for the ESA Ministerial Conference in November. We believe ESA is the right forum. We believe ESA is very successful. We believe ESA has very interesting programs. And of course, it's the time now that every country, every company, every director at ESA is working on, let's say, preparing the ministerial conference with content. I believe there is a lot of interesting content, at least what I can see the countries where we are active, especially Germany.

In terms of the money, I don't know. It's still this poker phase. Of course, industry and ESA leadership is asking for significant increases. Of course, in all the countries, they are not yet at committing level because in all the countries, there are discussions about which program they want to subscribe because as you know, we have the mandatory programs for science that will be the one thing. But obviously, optional programs, that's a question. I mean, so it's not clear. There are many proposals, and we support them. We like the idea, obviously, of a Lunar program. We feel this is something where we should be in the lead. We feel this is something where Germany should be in the lead. We feel this is the right time to -- for Europe to step to the moon because if we don't go, others will, and we have to be part of that. But that has not been decided, but that's something we are working on.

There are other proposals in terms of earth observation, security satellites, we would welcome this as well. Obviously, we welcome the increases and the continuations. We have been very happy, very happy about our participation of Rocket Factory Augsburg, winning the European launcher challenge. So we hope that this program is also substantially funded. There have been 5 companies all over Europe, 2 out of Germany and 1 in France, Spain and U.K. selected. So we hope that this will also be funded. So many things on that agenda.

But the German process of doing the budget, and Sabine can help me there, is obviously, in this year, a little bit different than in the previous years. So we have the situation that currently in 2025, we do not have a budget approved and the budget for 2025 is now under work. And what I understand is that in early September, there will be the so-called Beinigom system for 2025. And maybe, Sabine, you can outline what you believe is the process, how the budget of 2026 will come into power because that is then the real budget for the ministerial, right?

Yes. So usually, in the year of the election, we have -- that's similar to the year of the election. We have 2 phases of debates about the budget in the German parliament. So usually, this is for the budget of the annual -- of the year is in the beginning. But since we have the election in the beginning of the year, we have now actually -- these days, the debate of the budget for 2025. The so-called Berliner Sitzung will be held on September 4. In the week -- 2 weeks after, there will be the decision in the parliament. And so the -- and after the parliament, Bundestag has decided on the budget, they give it to the Bundestag. And so I think that the finalization of the budget 2025 will be by the end of October.

But in parallel, directly after the decision in the Bundestag, the Erste Lesung for the budget 2026 starts in the week, I think, of the September 14. No, December 14, that's the a week where they have the final debate on the budget 2025. And 2 weeks later, we have the beginning of the debate on the budget for 2026. We have now seen the first draft of the government, government draft for the budget 2026. If you had a look on it, so where we have already the increase of the numbers for the budget for defense. The budget for Space is still not put together in the new ministry since the new ministry has not been finalized its organization. Therefore, we still have the numbers for Space in the budget from the [ Forschungsministerium ] and the [ Verkehrsministerium ] and the new ministry.

I think that the consolidation will be done in the Bereinigungssitzung for the house -- for the budget 2026. So -- of course, for the ministerial, the budget 2026 is essential. And I'm pretty sure that the members of parliament and the committee of the budget will decide on that prior to the ministerial. And I'm very convinced since the coalition treaty gives us a very clear path where the coalition will go with the space in the next 4 years that we will see that the numbers will increase. And I'm sure that we will have a very, very good and successful ministerial held by the new Minister of Space, Dorothee Bär in Bremen in November.

Right. Got it. So maybe to sum it up from my side, the budgets might be put into different boxes than before, but the overall size will not drastically change or even go up according to the coalition.

We hope it goes up...

We hope that it will change.

We're doing everything. We're working...

He proposed that it should go up.

Yes. I mean with the new ministerium for space, I think the tone is set.

Yes, that's the assumption. I mean, that's the idea.

So part of the people have already been -- so the organizational chart for the new ministry is not yet finalized, but -- and there are still discussions since it's not so easy to just like in the industry to say to put people somewhere else who would just say, okay, I take the box out of the Ministry of Economic and I put it into the Ministry for Space. So this is obviously something that for public administration is a little bit more complicated. What we now read in the press is the debate about the new ministry for digitalization. And everything you read about this new ministry, you can copy and paste a little bit to the Ministry for Space. So it takes some time. But I know that in the background, they are already working not only on the organizational chart, but also on increasing or on putting the numbers together for the ministerial and therefore, we are really confident that the budget will go up. That's what we are working on.

Great. And then maybe to make the link between the budget and your operating performance, so from an outside view, it looks like -- and Marco, you said it before, there's less time for projects, but more money. And for me, this directly translates into bigger pricing power, maybe also margin increases coming from this. Is that something -- I mean, you're guiding obviously for EBIT margin increases over the next years. But is this something you also feel during -- when you bring your [Foreign Language] I don't know the English word afraid not...

Negotiations.

Negotiations exactly. That yes, you have actually more pricing power in negotiations? Or is that too far fetched from my view?

Of course, growth helps. And if there's more budget, it helps. And as you say, we are guiding for margin increases. If I mean, pricing power, I think it's more scale, right? I don't know, Markus, how do you feel.

I think, look, we're in an institutional market. So some of the markets have their rules, how you price and what are the profit margins. So -- and that is negotiated long term. And we just had recently concluded with our customer, ESA, a new agreement that's certainly reflected in those numbers. But we're not operating in fully free commercial market. So there are boundaries to that one. 80% of our businesses are with institutional customers and 20% are really with, I would say, so-called commercial customers in Space and elsewhere. where then the -- I would say, where we have open pricing negotiations. I think that's to be reminded.

Nevertheless, we talked about the investments that we made in the transformation program, standardization of platforms, using the learning curves that we had in the recent years, the economies of scale that will come with the increase of the annual growth on revenue. And those 3 factors on top will make us believe that we will have the increase in margins. But it's hard work. We believe it can be done. But it's not as easy as saying there's huge demand. We're just increasing the prices. And that's an immediately bottom line result just because of the markets we're operating, which are guided and regulated.

Margins come from hard work, Henry, not just from pricing power. It's hard work to make the margins up.

So delivering on time, and I think that's what we always see in the experience and in budget as quirky as it sounds is the key to success. And hence, we're having invested a lot into the program management, yes.

Hard work, we'll never give up. This is what we're doing. Like you followed also on our program where it took a long time for us to make progress. So this is the story. I mean, space is hard. So it's not an easy scalable industry. Everybody who's successful in the space industries over decades like OHB has to work hard, and this is unfortunately something that also limits the margins. And so obviously, the margin expansion that you see here that we foresee will keep us very busy over the years, but we're optimistic we will achieve it. And of course, a bigger market with more demand is a good thing.

Yes agreed. Gives a bit more color on how this will play out. And then I think one question for Kurt to also keep you -- glad you joined the call with some content. I've seen in Aerospace segment that the EBIT margin has nearly doubled, and we've seen this trend also in Q1 already. How -- what -- is there like a single pinpoint reason you can pin this margin trend to in the Aerospace segment? My first guess would be that the cadence at the Ariane 6 production is going up, and therefore, you have better utilization rates. But maybe you have something to add or give a little more color on why the EBIT margin in this segment is performing well on a year-on-year comparison.

Kurt, do you want to take that? You are muted, Kurt.

Also the picture is frozen, maybe he's offline.

[Foreign Language].

My expectation is due to the increased cadence of Ariane 6 and due to the U.S. market where we have substantial revenues in the meantime, I expect for the upcoming years a stable margin, EBIT margin of 10% in Aerospace, what we had in the before 5 time, we had -- during Ariane 5 is running well. We had around 10% and the target is clear to coming [indiscernible] business in addition with the increasing military business coming back to a stable margin of 10%. And this is all -- we are already on the way to it. And I think this is really feasible and the business is now stable and increasing. And we have a really good outlook in this segment for the next upcoming years.

Great. That's a great explanation. And then maybe last question, I think more on a global level. We've seen this big order intakes at the defense companies. Now you have your record order intake, I think, of EUR 1 billion in this quarter or more. Then the question obviously arises that also if you guide for this order intake going forward that the book-to-bill ratio will probably be above 2 in the next 2 years. So how do you plan to stem this growth at the end? I mean this now order intake is one thing, but execution is the other thing. So yes, is there like big CapEx plans, big hiring plans? Or do you have enough capacity to stem this growth with your current plans that you have?

That's a big challenge, obviously, because scalability in our industry is not so easy. You need the people, you need experienced people, excellent people, you need the facilities. So yes, we are hiring massively on -- in many sites in Germany, but also in Italy, Sweden, U.K. Yes, we are hiring. So that's a big challenge, by the way, but we are. And with regard to CapEx planning, Kurt, I don't know. I don't think we have any significant change in that. But Kurt, you maybe know better on the CapEx scenario. No, Kurt doesn't know better. Do you hear us, Kurt?

His picture is frozen. It's a bad connection there.

Kurt, we can see you, but we cannot hear you. So I'll take the answer. No, I don't think there is a significant change in CapEx.

[indiscernible].

It was just a question if we foresee a massive CapEx increase, Kurt. You are hard to understand, Kurt, but I guess the bottom line is hiring is the biggest pain.

Henry, I mean, we'll just -- how we approach it in terms of capacity. So hiring, you've seen the numbers since 2 years, I think we increased by over 650 people. So there's a process. And we also hired a new HR Director, Juliane, who specifically focuses on that one. On the MT side, as Kurt said, we diversified quite a bit the business, which is good away from Ariane, and we still have capacity historically in Augsburg. And also for our U.S. customers, we can use that capacity for 2 reasons. We do have a pricing advantage over U.S. competitors, number one, and we're currently still exempt of the tariff discussion because space is strategic to the United States. So that can be -- continue to be used.

And then in the ongoing projects that we have on the space side, we either optimize space that we have here in Germany specifically or if we have to extend, that's actually part of the program pricing that we suggest so that the CapEx investments that we have to do, for example, for IRIS2 have been always part of our program price to the customer.

I think I got a good picture now of what's going on and what's going to come.

I can't see any further questions.

Yes, I don't know if there are no further questions. And obviously, it has been a pleasure again. Thanks for being interested in OHB. Thanks for following Space. I can tell you, space industry is exciting. It will remain like this. And now it's really a booming industry, and we are very happy to be in the middle of it. We believe that our positioning is very good. There are new companies growing fast. There are traditional companies reshaping. But I guess our segment as, let's say, the one pure-play space company in Europe that does satellites, that does rockets, that does ground infrastructure operations, services downstream, we are very well positioned, and we feel very comfortable with this setting, and we are very happy that you support us and you're interested in us.

And should you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to call any of us, maybe channel it through Marcel. Obviously, we're looking forward to see you again on our next call on November 13 for Q3. And of course, also then around those days at the Space Tech Fair, which is just a few days before the Ministerial Conference of Bremen in November 22, 18-ish. So anyway, there's good reasons to visit Bremen to get in touch with the space industry. And so I conclude this call. Thank you very much. Have a good day and hopefully, a good holiday season that, I guess, some of you still remains. Thanks. Bye-bye.