Derichebourg Aktie

Good morning, everyone, ladies and gentlemen. Excuse me, sir. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for participating in the webinar to present Derichebourg's 2024-2025 Annual Results. Today, I am joined by Mr. Abderrahmane El Aoufir, Chief Executive Officer; and Pierre Candelier, Chief Financial Officer.

The session will focus on a presentation of the company's results and will then have access to a question-and-answer. [Operator Instructions] I would also like to remind you that you can consult the company's press release published yesterday evening on the derichebourg.com/investor/press-release website. The presentation can also be found on the derichebourg.com/investor/presentation website.

I will now hand over to Mr. El Aoufir.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. First of all, thank you for taking the time to attend this presentation of the group's annual results. The past financial year took place in a particularly complex environment in which we had to demonstrate rigor and responsiveness. Beyond the persistent geopolitical risks, our sector had to face an exceptional combination of unfavorable factors. Among these factors is the crisis in the automotive market. In fact, since the COVID period, the sector has been moving towards a technological transition that lacks clarity.

Are we moving towards an electric engine? Are we moving towards a hybrid engine? Are we moving towards a combustion engine? Some manufacturers have stopped their electric engine programs such as Porsche. Others are calling for the end of combustion engines to be delayed beyond 2035. And so there is an artistic flow around this technological transition that will take place in the years to come. Added to this is the particularly high cost of private vehicles and not everyone can afford to buy an electric or hybrid vehicle today, and there is a very significant penetration of Asian manufacturers, whether Japanese, South Korean or Chinese. As you know, Volkswagen has announced the closure of 3 factories in Europe and the other factories and manufacturers are not operating at full capacity. So the direct consequences of this crisis are a significant drop in production by European manufacturers on European soil. If we compare the main manufacturers with the period before COVID, we have recorded a drop of 25%. For SRR sector of activity, this drop means both a drop in the amount of scrap to be collected and fewer aluminum ingots to be delivered to car manufacturers.

The second unfavorable factor is the crisis in the construction industry, whether private or public. In recent years, we have seen a drop in building permits and construction starts of between 30% and 40%, depending on the country. And this crisis has affected practically all European countries, including Germany, Sweden, Finland, France and Austria. So we have seen a series of bankruptcies among developers and -- the construction sector consumes 35% of long steel, which means less demand, pressure on prices and lower margins.

The third unfavorable factor is Chinese crude steel exports. The Chinese have always exported, but now faced with a slowdown in their domestic economy, they have increased their exports to Europe and other countries such as Turkey and Egypt. So they have put pressure on prices and, of course, on margins, and they have hurt European steelmakers.

The fourth unfavorable factor is the fall in the dollar. We have in our portfolio, I would say, clients from markets that we trade in dollars. And since the new American administration came to power, the dollar has fallen by between 8% and 9%. And of course, all prices that are expressed in dollars mean for us a drop in prices and a drop in markets. Despite these unfavorable factors, the group's teams were able to react. They manage prudently, and we were able to produce results that are admittedly slightly lower than those of last year, but a completely respectable drop in free cash flow today.

So I will now hand over to Pierre Candelier, the Group CFO, to give a detailed presentation of the accounts.

Thank you very much, sir. Thank you very much, Abderrahmane. Before going into the figures, perhaps everyone in our audience has a slightly different level of knowledge of the group. So I would just like to remind you that the group operates 2 direct businesses. A metal waste recycling business in which it is the fourth largest player worldwide and a community service business, collecting your waste door-to-door or at a voluntary drop-off point and that it is also without being an operator that it is also the reference shareholder of Elior.

With 48% of the capital, there you have it, some figures that I will not order since we will come back to them later, which describe the group's main aggregates. A word on recycling, it is a process that involves several stages. That is to say that we start by going to collect the metal waste material that we buy. We do not have free material. We always buy all the materials that have value. Then there is a first step in the process, which generally consists of a step of shredding or crushing the materials.

And then there's often a second or even a third sorting step to refine everything that is not directly scrap metal. And then we enter specialized sorting lines within the group in which the group is developing since these are what we call our niche businesses. We will come back to this a little later. Also, a word for those who are less familiar with steelmaking. You know that there are 2 main ways to make steel. One is the historical way, which is the furnace process. In the furnace process, you consume iron ore and oxygen, which you reduce to cast iron. The process emits a lot of greenhouse gases, and then you add a little oxygen to make steel.

The other steelmaking route is a sector that we mainly serve although we do sell a little bit of recycled steel or scrap metal to the furnace, but it's marginal. We mainly sell to electric smelters. Electric smelters remelt metals that have already been previously made from steel to make recycled steel. And it's a process that is much better from an environmental perspective. We'll come back to that a little later, and it's very flexible since the plants are cheaper and can be shut down on weekends. So there you have it. These are 2 processes. Well, we'll come back to that in the Q&A. If you have any questions about that.

So recycling, which we're a major player in, is an activity that has huge advantages from an environmental perspective compared to primary metal manufacturing. Primary manufacturing involves starting with pebbles and heating them very strongly, then obtaining intermediate products and finally obtaining metal, and heating pebbles emits a lot of greenhouse gases. You can see in the curves, the graphs in black, the savings in terms of recycling for the path we are on, recycling compared to the manufacture of primary metals. We emit 92% less greenhouse gases for aluminum, 74% for copper and 70% for steel, which is the main metal we recycle. So this is the first year that we are implementing the CSRD directive, which is the new European regulation for sustainability reporting.

I would say that the 3 main elements that concern us are that we are committed to a decarbonization plan that is in line with the trajectory below 2 degrees Celsius. We have more than 80% of our turnover aligned with the objective of mitigating climate change, and we are committed to a trajectory of constantly improving the safety of our workers, our employees at work and with a continuous reduction in the frequency of work accidents.

I will pass this slide. We will come back to it. I will now yes, an important point, which is the network and geographic density of the group. In the group's strategy, we do not seek to accumulate the number of countries in which we are established, but it is important for us to have regional density. Transporting materials is very expensive when they are not prepared. So we need to have local sites that serve processing sites, recycling sites and transformation sites. And in France, we have more than 200 sites that cover almost the entire national territory. And this is what allows us to have specialized sorting lines on which we concentrate a certain number of material flows to be recycled.

Now I'm going to go into the figures. So turnover for the year came to EUR 337 million, down 7.5% compared to the previous year. Current income was EUR 319.5 million, representing a turnover rate of 9.6%, up 40 basis points compared to last year, which was 9.2%. As Abderrahmane said, this income is down slightly compared to last year by 3.2%. It is slightly higher than the range we communicated at the beginning of September, which was EUR 300 million to EUR 310 million. Let's explain it very simply.

When we made this revised forecast, we had a series of months since May to June where we were systematically lower than the comparable month of the following year. So we had assumed that it would be the same for September, but in the end, that was not the case. You know that we aim to have the lowest possible inventory level, especially at the end of the financial year. And when we reduced our inventory, well, in the end, it recognized margins that were completely satisfactory, and we had a month of September that was comparable to that of September last year. This explains why our EBIT for the month of September or rather than at the end of the financial year is finally slightly higher than the range that we had communicated.

Depreciation and amortization are almost stable compared to last year. Our current operating profit is EUR 158.9 million, a little lower than last year, 8.5%. We have made very little adjustments to current operating income, which means that it is almost the same amount, EUR 157 million, down 10%. The good news is that our financial expenses have fallen significantly by EUR 7 million. This is due to a slightly lower average debt than last year and above all, to a drop in financial expenses since you have all noticed that rates have started to fall for about a year now, which has enabled us to record savings of EUR 7 million. Pretax income amounts to EUR 119 million, down 10% compared to last year.

Finally, we have recorded a slightly higher corporate tax charge since.

Accounting rules require us to report a portion of the contribution that the state has implemented on companies that achieve a turnover of more than EUR 3 billion in France. So the rules are based on the income, but rather on this year's tax and next year's tax, and we have set aside a portion of it. The line that has changed significantly compared to last year is the share of profit of equity accounted companies since we have gone from minus EUR 19 million to plus EUR 43.9 million. This is the share of profit in Elior since we take 48% of Elior's profit on this line. Elior had recorded a loss last year, and this year recorded a very significant net profit of EUR 88 million. The net profit returned to shareholders is EUR 122 million compared to EUR 74.8 million last year. This is an increase of 63%.

The Board of Directors, which met yesterday, proposes the distribution of a dividend of EUR 0.13 per share, unchanged compared to last year or 26% of net profit. At Elior, the profit has increased by 63%, and the dividend is stable. I would like to point out that if we record Elior's share of the profit, we do not have all of it in cash since Elior is starting to distribute dividends again. We will receive EUR 4.9 million, that's it. But it would be dangerous to distribute cash in advance that we do not have in full since out of the EUR 43 million, we will receive EUR 5 million next year, and it is likely to increase over the coming years. I will skip this slide since Abderrahmane has given all the content.

I would say that market sentiment improved at the end of the financial year or at the very beginning of this financial year since the European Commission took stock of the difficulties faced by steel customers, steelmakers, excuse me, in their operations and in their utilization rate and announced it was at the very end of the financial year or at the very beginning of the financial year that has just started a reform of the quota and customs duty policy as of July 1 of next year.

Since the quantities of imported steel that are not subject to quotas will decrease significantly and above the quota, which is not subject to customs duties, customs duties will double. So that should support our customers' production in EUROFER, which is the body that represents steelmakers, expects an increase in the utilization rate of steelmakers of almost 15 basis points from next year or rather from July.

The second element that should support activity, which will come into effect on January 1 is the carbon border adjustment mechanism. Steel arriving in Europe, which will come from countries whose production mix emits a lot of greenhouse gases, will gradually be subject to taxes in addition to customs duties. It will start slowly at around EUR 40 per ton in 2026 and reach around EUR 200 in 2035. So these 2 measures should be favorable to our insurance clients and therefore, to the groups.

So if we quickly look at the curves of raw materials that I imagine you are familiar with, steel and scrap metal have fallen throughout the period. It's a little less noticeable on this curve since it factors in 2022 when prices were particularly high, but we lost EUR 50 to EUR 60 between the start and end of the financial year and the average price. You'll see that there is a significant impact on the scrap metal mix or rather on scrap metal turnover.

Aluminum, we need to look at 2 categories: aluminum ingots, which are the gray curve. Prices were relatively low throughout the financial year. This is linked to the difficulties in the automotive market that Abderrahmane mentioned. There is a second category of aluminum, primary aluminum, which is used to manufacture aluminum frames or window frames, which saw prices rise over the financial year with a regular demand. Copper, well is the metal for which there is good visibility, and therefore, prices and volumes increase throughout the financial year.

I would like to draw your attention to the red curve, which is in dollars and the gray curve, which is in euros. In the second half of the financial year, we did not fully benefit from the increase in the price of copper since the dollar weakened. Lead, which is a metal that is generally not very volatile, has the same phenomenon as copper with a decorrelation of the price in euros and the price of copper.

Another important element in the financial year over the past few years is the growing share of our activity in the so-called EPR sectors. This is Extended Producer Responsibility, this is a European regulation and is most often transposed in France in the form of an eco-organization. Historically, about 20 years ago, it started with the 3 waste electrical, electronic and household equipment. And it has now also been transposed to the carrier of use and will also be transposed in the future to everything related to batteries, such as accumulators and batteries. So the group is, of course, looking to be present because there are specific investments in this sector, which is a sector where there are still barriers to entry. So we are fully committed to this dynamic.

We have signed 2 agreements with 2 eco-organizations or individual car manufacturer systems to continue to receive end-of-life vehicles on our sites. The agreements we have signed allow us to receive vehicles of all brands, and we have also signed a Memorandum of Understanding with LG Energy, which is one of the world's leading manufacturers of electric batteries to enter a market that, although it does not yet exist today, is set to develop in the coming years for recycling electric vehicle batteries, which are also manufacturing waste from factories.

We will now look at the results by activity. The recycling activity accounts for 94% of the group's turnover. So you won't be surprised to see that the results of the recycling business are very similar to the group's results. EUR 3,015,152 million in turnover, up 7.7%, current account deficit of EUR 280 million, down 3% and a rate of return that improved from 8.5% to 8.9%. That's an indicator that we're looking at. It means that the group has been able to maintain its margins. And that's something particularly positive in the environment we've been through. Operating profit is down 6% so we'll spend a few moments on that on this slide.

Scrap metal volumes are down 7.7% and scrap metal turnover is down 15%. So that means that there is a negative price effect of around 8% since the average price of scrap metal was down by EUR 29 per ton compared to last year. In fact, we can say that the decline was almost continuous throughout the financial year. It is quite rare to have a financial year like this where we have months of decline and then sharp declines. We had 6 to 8 months of very sharp declines, a few months of stability and very few months of increases. That is quite rare. We will come back to this in the outlook section.

Nonferrous metals volumes are down by 8.7%. This decline was mainly recorded in the second half of the year. In particular, the months of April and May were significantly impacted by Donald Trump's statements on April 2. All the players were a bit stunned by the announcements on Liberation Day before trade flows gradually resumed at the end of the financial year and took new paths. So you can see that turnover is only down 1% for nonferrous metals. There are a lot of different factors in this. We have made more expensive metals, particularly copper, which is increasing in volume and a little less cheap metals such as stainless steel scrap, which is down 13%. We have been faced with credit insurance losses on certain customers, which has deprived us of some sales and then extremely low demand for aluminum. Also, demand for ingots has fallen by 16% and for primary aluminum by 12%.

Zinc is doing well. Lead volumes are down, but we are imitating ourselves, I would say, because of a small technical problem with the flow of semi-finished products. The service business is also down slightly by 5%, and that is linked to general economic activity. We have not lost any contracts or anything in this area. EBITDA is holding up well since it is down by 3%. We have a decrease, a contraction in the commercial margin of 25 million, mainly related to scrap metal. Ferrous raw materials, nonferrous metals are holding up, and this decrease is offset by cost savings. Half of these savings come from electricity. I would like to remind you that up until 2021, we had relatively affordable electricity prices and that since 2022, electricity prices have skyrocketed in 2022 and 2023. They started to drop in 2024 and dropped again in 2025, although they are still more expensive than in 2021. And we have almost reached levels where we will no longer see any decreases or very moderate decreases in 2026. But we have returned to acceptable prices.

You can see that there are also savings on other items, which are mainly variable costs that are correlated with volumes. And since our volumes have dropped slightly, we have made some savings on these items. The more fixed costs are stable. If we look at it geographically, I would say that EBITDA is more or less stable in France and that most of the decline comes from other European countries such as Belgium, which has been facing difficulties. Belgium is very exposed to the Turkish scrap metal market, which has had little demand for 1.5 years and has seen falling prices, which are relatively low in Spain, which, while performing excellently, was slightly lower in the drawings last year.

So this slide is very important. If I had to say there was only one to remember, it would be this one. It illustrates the group's strategy, which is to differentiate itself from some of its peers or from its medium-sized peers who do not necessarily always have the space to invest in specialized sorting lines to go even further in recycling and processing technically advanced products such as, let's say, very small products or products that are in their third stage of transformation, such as induction flotation, such as metal refining, such as lines that require dedicated investments backed by contracts such as lines with eco-organizations and that offer a little more, let's say, visibility and consistency than scrap metal or rather traditional ferrous and nonferrous metal materials that are a little more volatile.

We had said that the group would like to have a little more than 1/4 of its turnover dedicated to its lines. We have achieved that. We will raise our target to achieve this gradually, I think, to 30% or even 1/3. And an increasing share of our EBITDA generated in these activities, which are represented by the black bricks on the graph, we have 36% of our EBITDA generated in these businesses, which are a little less volatile. Of course, this requires investment, but it is a long-term strategy that pays off. If we talk about the [ TR ] eco-organizations, we have been investing in these lines for over 20 years. There you have it, and we are still working with these eco-organizations, and we continue to support them. We are currently investing in 4 hot water tank recycling lines. We will come back to this.

A few words about household waste collection in which we are a medium-sized player, I would say, with an activity focused on France and Canada. We are not necessarily looking to be the biggest, but we are looking to serve municipalities that have a demand for quality of service, slightly more first level supervision and also technical expertise in the equipment that we implement, which allows us to have slightly more premium services and inevitably a little more expensive, which means that we do not apply for calls for tenders. Offer from municipalities that are only looking for the lowest price since everyone has to be satisfied, the municipalities in terms of quality of service, and we also have a certain level of profitability.

Our turnover is down very slightly by 4%, and our EBITDA is not down more than our turnover. So that is entirely satisfactory. We have a throughput rate of 11.5%, which for this activity is entirely satisfactory and shows that the strategy we are implementing is paying off. There you have it.

Okay. The drop in turnover is because we had a contract that ended at the end of last year, which we were, let's say, not unhappy about ending and which was replaced by a new contract with Rennes, which is of a slightly smaller size and which also has slightly high start-up costs this year, which means that the performance in EBITDA is temporarily slightly down. Now Elior is in a different color on the left-hand side of the page since it is not an activity that we control. We record the code share in our line of results for equity accounted companies. The results of Elior's were communicated on November 19. I will not go into detail simply to say that this is the third consecutive year that the deteriorating results have improved, that the strategy implemented by Daniel Derichebourg, who no longer has an operational role at Derichebourg and who is now Chairman and CEO of Elior is bearing fruit with an improvement of more than EUR 200 million in operating profit in 3 years, which is absolutely remarkable.

Well, we have a cost price of Elior securities in our consolidated accounts of EUR 3.38. An important point is that Elior refinanced its debt during the financial year, and it did it all on its own without the support of the Derichebourg Group. If we look at our balance sheet, EUR 1.1 billion for those of you who are following us, EUR 1.1 billion in equity, which is your equity, the group has never had such a level of capitalization. It is quite favorable. It allows us to have liquidity to be solid to get through the less favorable periods without any particular difficulties. And that gives us solidity to finance well noncurrent assets, mainly industrial equipment, which has a long lifespan that we own, including land for most of it and which gives us long-term visibility that allows us to, well, be a player. The group will celebrate its 70th anniversary next year to be here again and perform well for the next 70 years. A slightly decreasing debt. We'll come back to that.

Well, we will go straight to the next slide. With a debt that has decreased by EUR 30 million with an investment rate that is maintained in the guidance that we had given of being less than 50%. If we take into account investments plus the implementation of new IFRS 16, we are at 45%, which is very good. While having a share of development investment of 41% in recycling investments this year. Well, that means we are able to spread out our maintenance investments well. We have a tool that is clearly relatively recent of good quality. One point on the change in working capital requirements is up EUR 548 this year. There is a nonrecurring dimension to this change, I think. We were supposed to sell a scrap metal boat at the end of September because a crane had broken down and a crane that does not belong to us, but a port crane. The shipment was postponed to October, so that contributed EUR 7 million to the increase. The rest is linked to the market situation where demand, particularly for ferrous metal, was relatively low in the second half of the financial year. So we sold this ferrous metal to major export customers.

And in terms of working capital requirements, it is a little less favorable. Payment terms, the time it takes to ship ships and containers are longer, and we also have certain facilities when we sell to European customers to get paid very quickly or via a deconsolidated invoice-based invoicing contract. We are completely free of risk since when we are paid. Since we have sold less in Europe, we have EUR 60 million less factoring compared to last year. That explains with our expectations that things should pick up a little in Europe during the financial year, we should be able to turn the other way a little in terms of the change in working capital requirement. We have a leverage ratio of 2.14. That's quite comfortable. I'll move on for now. We'll come back to it if you like.

I'll hand over to Abderrahmane El Aoufir on the outlook.

Hello again. So regarding the outlook, I would say I would differentiate between short-term and long-term outlooks. Regarding the short term, as I said in the introduction, we believe that we have reached a low point and that prices and volumes can only improve. Regarding prices, if prices fall, collection will stop, and so we do not expect a price drop. Regarding volume, we are still dependent on economic activity. What we can tell you today is that volumes have stopped falling since this summer. So today, we are no longer falling compared to previous years. We have reached a low point, and we are maintaining this level.

Regarding our projects, we have projects underway that will start up and improve our results. We started up a hot water tank crushing site in Bonneuil in September. So we will have the fuller impact next year. We will have a similar facility that will start up in January in Cheminot in Eastern France. So we will have the impact for half of the financial year. We also started up a copper cable shredding line in Madrid, Spain in September, and we will have the impact for the whole year. And then the last line, unfortunately, will only start up in September, October next year. We will not have the impact of that line.

Regarding the household waste collection business, well, the business is resilient. We do not expect any variation. We will be at the same levels of results compared to this year. And then Elior, well, which continues to improve, we have already had, if you want, the results for the month of October, which are good. So we expect further improvement in Elior's results compared to this year's. So in the short term and in the long term, we are very confident. Why? Because there are many projects to change from blast furnaces to electric furnaces, and these changes will mean that there will be more demand for scrap metal. There will be less pressure on prices, and these projects are in Europe, so lower transportation costs and all that should be very, very favorable for us.

Regarding nonferrous metals, well, copper, which currently plays an important role in electrification. Well, the group has invested a lot in recent years to become a leading player in copper. So things are going well in that direction. So as you know, the recycling market remains fragmented, and the group continues to look for opportunities to play a consolidating role in the sector. So we are currently exploring, targets that make sense. We don't just want to grow for the sake of it, but targets that make sense for us, both industrially and economically to play a consolidating role in the sector.

That's it. I'm done. So we'll move on to the question-and-answer session. Thank you very much.

Thank you, gentlemen, for this very clear presentation. [Operator Instructions] So we have a first question concerning your upcoming strategic investments and structuring projects and what you can tell us about these projects and provide a bit more detail.

So I'll talk to us about the process of hot water tanks. So that's in progress, and it will be finished in September, October 2026. It will be finished. So it was a call for tenders that was launched by an eco-organization. We won 4 installations and so there you have it. It's something that works. We have a project with LG Electric Solutions, one of the world's largest producers of electric batteries and which owns a factory in Poland, the largest gigafactory for manufactured batteries in a joint venture to start a processing and recycling facility for electric batteries in 2 years. So we are aware, if you like, that there is currently no market for these electric batteries. The fact that we are associated with LG motivated us, if you like, to join because firstly, they will send us all their production waste from the Polish factory. That's a positive point. So that means we will already have some stock and stop.

The second thing is that we're going to learn a lot because the market will eventually be very large. If things continue as they are, we think there will be about 50 facilities for processing electric batteries between France and Spain, where the group has a very dense network. And so through our network, we would like to take 30% or 35% of the market share in this sector, which we think will be very successful. It's a niche business. You need to have knowledge, you need to have the financial means to invest and all that and so we should be a major player.

The third important project concerns a whole host of plans. In fact, Pierre mentioned in his presentation. From time to time, I would say often, we have some difficulties in placing semifinished products because they are hazardous waste. And so in fact, we are shooting ourselves in the foot because we are not able to, we are reducing purchases because we are reaching the stocks mentioned in our prefectural decree and all that, and we have decided to set up a refinery. The refinery will transform hazardous waste into products and we can sell it, of course, to consumers, to battery manufacturers or we could sell it to LME. So that will give us a certain freedom, a certain flexibility in a sector that is really profitable for us.

And so it is an investment that will be made in 2 phases. The first phase is EUR 25 million. The second phase is an additional EUR 10 million, so that is EUR 35 million. And so we would have a facility on the same site for both battery crushing and refining of plans that will benefit from the latest technologies, I would say. And so there you have it, we will not have hazardous waste circulating on the road. We are going to have the amount of hazardous waste that is circulating on the road. That's it for our major investment plans for that next 2 years.

Abderrahmane, thank you very much for your answer. I will now take the following questions. We have a question about the activity. Can you go back over the recent changes in collection costs and provide a bit more color and confidence as to the possible impact on prices.

If you like, the cost of transportation is an important element of the cost price. Okay. So today, basic collection, when we reach a certain price today, for example, let's say when we drop below $300, but purchase price is around $100 or $90, something like that. If we drop any further, people will no longer be interested in doing primary collection. And so collection will stop, and I would say the volumes will drop significantly. And we saw that a few decades ago. So that's why we don't think, if you like, that we're not going to lower the price level any further. We're really nearing the bottom. There may be adjustments here and there from time to time, and we think that's our analysis. We think we reached the bottom.

Thank you very much. To continue with the activity part of this Q&A session, we have a question regarding the ramp-up of EAF capacity, which will ultimately eliminate all scrap metal exports outside Europe. Will that allow it? And in this scenario, to what extent could unit margins actually rise?

So the closest projects. Okay. So the Swedish SSAB group is expected to start up its new furnace at the end of 2026. Then there's Saarstahl, which plans to do so from 2027 to 2028. There's also Voestalpine from 2027 to 2028. All these people are currently working with ore. So tomorrow or the day after, they'll be working with pre-product and scrap metal. Today, the European Union exports around 18 million tons per year, if you like.

Okay. So having local consumption means you have lower overhead costs. I would say consistency because, well, if we're on spot markets on European markets, we're more on regular relations and logically, that should translate into an improvement in our margins, of course.

Thank you, Abderrahmane. So still on the activity side, we have a question about what the increase in capacity in terms of hot water tanks and copper chips would represent in terms of tonnage and what the expected turnover would be from these new developments.

So on that, honestly, whether in terms of tonnage or turnover, these are not significant or significant increases or variations. They are marginal. On the other hand, since we do this as a service, that's where the whole point lies, if you like, because we collect these hot water tanks, and we invoice the eco-organizations for the service. And so that's the point. Profitability comes more from the service we provide than from the turnover or the additional volume we generate.

Thank you, Abderrahmane. If we continue with the questions about the activity part, in the battery recycling market, how would you describe your positioning?

So I don't know if we're talking about electric batteries or batteries on the plan. So I'll give you both. So for the battery on the plan, we're looking to become a benchmark player in France for batteries on the plan, okay? So we're currently in a phase of public inquiry, okay? So we need to have the prefectural authorization between April and May, okay? And we expect a maximum of 2 years to build a plant, and we're going to become the leading producer of ingots of plans in France with vertical integration where we have, if you like, several sites, we have more than 200 sites in France. So we're going for collection for on-site crushing and for manufacturing. So we need to become the #1 player in France.

Let me remind you that we are a much smaller player in Spain because we already do this activity in Spain, but we are a much smaller player because, in fact, our own competitors are competitors or our own customers, okay? They are battery manufacturers. As for the electric battery, well, I think everyone was at the beginning, we are at the beginning. We do not claim to know. For us, it is part of research and development, as if we were saying. In fact, we want to enter this market to learn and there is the black mass, so we do not know. I mean neither the marketing nor I would say the outlets and all that. So that is, and that is why we lean on LG, which is a large producer of electric batteries. All this to help us to help us at the start. Once we have our foot in the door, I think we will be able to become a major player in electric batteries and in electric battery recycling.

Thank you for the very comprehensive answers. We will now move on to the financial section with this first question on the volume price assumptions. Can you remind us of these assumptions on which the guidance for 2025, 2026 is based?

Regarding scrap metal, as indicated, we should benefit from the end of the financial year, particularly in the last quarter, from the measures taken by the European Commission to limit imports. So that should be very favorable for us. And also regarding non-ferrous metals, we should benefit from the start-up and is even certain that we will benefit from the startup of the cable shredding line. So a cable shredding line is about 18,000 tons of input per additional copper cable. So there you have it. So we should see a slight increase in volumes on both sides, whether it's scrap metal or irone works.

Thank you, Pierre. Our question in the finance section is on the service and municipal segment. How do you explain the drop in margin observed over the past financial year? And an interesting question are the upcoming municipal elections likely to change the outlook for this segment?

So I would say that the margin is not falling in the community service sector. It is holding steady since we still have a turnover rate of 20.6%. So if there is a slightly lower turnover, it is because there is less turnover. It is mainly because we replaced a large contract with a medium-sized contract, and we also sold a small business that we had in reunion. While we have slightly less turnover, but the margin rate remained stable at 20.6%, which is very high, and we are pleased about that.

Next, will the municipal elections have an effect on this activity? Not immediately since the activities generally benefit from contracts lasting 5 to 7 years, and the following municipal teams inherit the contract that was signed by the previous municipal team. If there is a change in municipality, then there should be no upheaval in the long term with the municipal elections.

Thank you, Pierre. Now a question about Elior and its share in your financial asset item of EUR 445 million.

It's EUR 412 million.

Okay. Thank you for that clarification. And what are the financing plans now? What are the next major refinancing deadlines and what would be the expected rates?

So a word about the group's financing strategy. The group has a strategy that aims to reduce its debt gradually on a like-for-like basis by devoting a little less than 50% of its EBITDA to investments paying its financial expenses, paying corporate tax and paying a dividend to its shareholders. And all this, when you have a relatively stable business allows you to reduce your debt year after year by EUR 80 million to EUR 100 million, model the variations in WCR, which are more difficult to predict and are not structural. In general, we finally managed to have a WCR that is more or less stable over several years. There you have it. So that's the financing strategy. It's about having a policy of progressive debt reduction over time.

Then regarding financing deadlines, we don't have any major deadlines this year. Our theoretical deadlines are 2028. For both our syndicated loan and our bond. We'll see if we get there or not. We still have time.

Thank you for your answer. So still on the subject of financing, a question about the leverage level, which no longer seems to be mentioned as an objective. Can you provide a bit more color on the anticipated trend and whether you are still aiming for a return to 1x net debt to EBITDA in the medium term?

Well, I partially answered that in my previous question. We still have a debt reduction strategy, that's what I just said. We are able to reduce our debt by about 3 turns of leverage per year, 3 to 4, and so we should continue to get closer to that, all other things being equal in the years to come.

Yes. Thank you, Pierre. So perhaps one last question to close the session because we are almost at the end of the session. On the business side, we have a question about Orange, which has to dismantle copper lines by 2030. The question is whether you are involved in the recycling project for these thousands of tons?

So Orange has already started recycling copper cables, okay, and we are stakeholders in the first contract. So today, we process about 1,000 tons Orange cable per month. And the second contract should arrive very soon in the coming weeks. So maybe before the end of the year, maybe at the beginning of the year. So there you have it. We are a player in this sector. We work with Orange in good harmony. The relationship is good. We are an industrial group. They know that our facilities are modern, that we process things properly. Okay. So there you have it. There are no worries about that. So we are confident about the renewal of the contract for Part 2. The contract that will last until 2032.

So thank you very much, gentlemen, for this very interesting discussion and for answering our listeners' questions. I will now give you the final word, Mr. Aoufir before specifying that the webinar will be available as a replay. Very soon that there will also be a translation of this webinar that will be available a few days later. I will leave you with a final word.

Okay. Well, listen, first of all, once again, thank you for taking the time to attend this presentation of the results. So here are the prospects. We are confident in the group's business model. We have a resilient model. I would say what I invite you to do is look at all the companies in the sector that publish their results. You will see that our model is quite robust. Unfortunately, economic activity is what it is. And so we are dependent on volumes due to economic activity, but we are confident about the future and our business model. We are trying to manage it rigorously and prudently.

And of course, as Pierre Candelier said, the group will celebrate its 70th anniversary next year. So we have managers with a lot of experience and skills. And so we are focused on our core business, our historical business, which is recycling metal waste and everything that goes with it. So we don't want to get distracted, whether it's plastics, cardboard or all that. So we are really focused on our core business, our historical business that we know well and that we master well. I don't know if you want.

No, no. Thank you very much, everyone, for taking part in this meeting.

Thank you very much.

Thank you all. Have a nice rest of the day.